[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:03] Speaker B: Welcome to the Rainmaker fundraising podcast where we bring you tips and insights to help you raise more money for your organization and lead more effectively. I'm your host, Andrew Olson.
[00:00:14] Speaker C: Hey, everyone, welcome to the show. This is Andrew Olson. I'm here today. I'm really excited to be with Jim Langley today. Jim, good morning.
[00:00:21] Speaker A: Good morning, Andrew. So nice to be with you.
[00:00:24] Speaker C: It's great to be with you. It's long overdue. We've, we've kind of connected From Afar on LinkedIn over the last couple years, but this is the first time we've had an opportunity to sit down together and have a chat. So I'm really excited about it.
For, for those of you listening that might not know, Jim, he is the founder of Langley Innovations. Jim, in addition to that, though, you, your background. So you were chief Advancement and, and External relations Officer at multiple different universities. Is it Georgetown?
[00:00:53] Speaker A: Yep, Georgetown, Georgia Tech, and UC San Diego.
[00:00:56] Speaker C: All right, so that's, that's great experience. Tech. So I, I went to college in North Georgia. Nowhere, nowhere near Tech, but I did stop at the varsity a few times across the street.
That's going to be our common connection for the morning.
[00:01:10] Speaker A: There you go. All right. Now, did you get the outside service? Did you pull up in the car and get the.
[00:01:15] Speaker C: Yeah, we, we went in and hung out.
[00:01:20] Speaker A: Some people just hang out in the car. Like that's one of those old fashioned, you know, places where you could actually get outside service. It's still there.
[00:01:27] Speaker C: Yeah, you know, it, it's such a confounding shop. The food is both immensely tasty and horrible for you.
But what I love most is you can walk in there in like dirty jeans and a raggedy T shirt and be next to someone who pulled up in a limousine in, you know, evening attire because they're going out to the opera or something. It's crazy.
[00:01:50] Speaker A: That's it. That's it. A mutual addiction to greasy onion rings seems to bring the world together.
[00:01:57] Speaker C: So. So, Jim, your firm, I was really intrigued as I was looking at the work that you do.
I see these sort of pillars of organizational health, fundraising strategy and training.
And I'm really curious of those three offerings that, that your firm provides. What's your favorite thing? Like what, what do you enjoy most to focus on?
[00:02:22] Speaker A: Well, I, I think the diagnostics are essential and I use the term vital signs assessment. And Andrew, I don't have to tell you that that vital signs, when applied to most organization is not yielding encouraging news that they are ailing increasingly because of their distance and detachment from changing philanthropic realities and maybe even changing sociological realities, that they've kind of cocooned themselves and talked themselves into believing what they want to believe, including other people ready, willing and able to help them.
And all they need to do is state what it is that they want donors to do. So I think that's where I can render the greater service. But increasingly, Andrew, I'm being asked to facilitate or do training modules for boards.
And I don't, I do enjoy that, but I think it's so important that people with our point of view get to the top of the organization because it's our best chance to bring about systemic change. And so every once in a while, you do break through. You do see people, oh my goodness, we are on the wrong path or we've been on the same old path too long.
So I find that thrilling when you can get to the top of the organization and start to see the glimmer of dawning that we have to behave differently and have to think about less about gift getting and more about partnership building, less about our objectives and more about community building.
[00:04:01] Speaker C: That's. That's so spot on. It's so important. You know, I, I have, I've been doing this a long time, just like you, and I've come to the conclusion that there's really no fundraising problem in our industry.
[00:04:15] Speaker D: Right.
[00:04:16] Speaker C: There's, there's no lack of capital.
[00:04:19] Speaker D: Right.
[00:04:19] Speaker C: There's, there's a lack of leadership and a lack of vision. And, and I think exactly what you're talking about, this idea of like, let's just be rinse and repeat. We've done this for 20, 30, 50 years. Maybe we're the experts in our space, so you should just give to us because we said we're smart.
And if you don't believe that, let me educate you with all of this material that's irrelevant to you as a supporter and expect that you write me the biggest check you can write it. It's so problematic. But, but, so I think just like ingrained culturally in organizations.
[00:04:52] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:04:53] Speaker C: You know, you and I were talking, excuse me, Ahead of this podcast, about the idea of, and the importance of both curiosity and courage. And, and I actually think, like, courage is one of those things for me that is, is one of the just core traits of the most successful people that I know.
But I'm really curious to get your take on it. Talk a little bit, if you will, about why you feel like it's so important for fundraisers and leaders to embody that.
[00:05:27] Speaker A: I will. And like You. I'm struck by how many of these books and articles about leadership don't put courage at the forefront. Because if you study history, if you study when positive change was brought about, you see tremendously courageous leaders who were ahead of the times, who were ahead of thought, who saw better ways and, you know, had to have the courage of their convictions. But if I could, Andrew, let me try to put the two of them together, curiosity and courage. Because I say everything that an institution can and should manifest resides in what we know about the individual. Right. So I try to look at what brings about institutional growth. I'm sorry, what brings about individual growth and apply it to the institution. So I can say my own story, and I suspect it's yours or some version of it, that my greatest growth comes from my own soul searching of asking myself, why am I falling short of who I could be? Why is there a gap between my word and my deed?
Why am I not more compassionate? Why can I be petty? Why under the wrong circumstances, can I default to the mean?
And so it's only when you take a look at yourself and your origins that you start to grow. And I would submit, Andrew, that takes a great act of courage, is to take an objective look at yourself, not shine yourself on, not give yourself an easy pass that, that say, Jim, you're capable of more. And when you apply that, then to institutional thinking, it isn't backpatting, it isn't clothing, it isn't bragging, it isn't being smug. It is institutional soul searching. It's the best form of strategic planning is to say when, how and why have we fallen short of our mission ideals and our mission promise.
That takes courage.
So I work with so many organizations on strategic planning, planning, usually as a predicate to fundraising. And Andrew, guess where they struggle. Where you almost have to rough them up is in acknowledging internal weaknesses and external threats.
They want to go into the advertising mode. We're the best kept secret.
If people only knew how wonderful we were, they would give more. And I go, no, you're not so wonderful.
And as long as you think you're wonderful, you're not going to get very far, you're not going to grow, and you're not going to attract substantive people.
[00:08:18] Speaker C: Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, oftentimes when I see an organization that's willing to be reflective in that respect, it's usually when there's a new CEO who's come on board or there's been a significant change in the board.
[00:08:35] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:08:36] Speaker C: And it's almost like that's the jolt that an organization needs to get out of their own way and to say, well, maybe we're not.
[00:08:44] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:08:45] Speaker D: Right.
[00:08:47] Speaker C: So let's camp on this idea of curiosity for a minute because I, it's one of those things from a values perspective that I, I talk to my team about all the time. It's, it's a critical component for us. And, and, and what I see is that so often CEOs, chief development officers, and it's just culturally in a lot of organizations there's this sort of this, this idea that we're not going to ask the hard questions because then we have to answer them.
[00:09:18] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:19] Speaker C: And we would rather, we would rather let things go wrong sometimes catastrophically.
[00:09:24] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:25] Speaker C: Than be curious about what might get us there and what might keep us from having a catastrophic failure. And I mean, I get a lot of that that comes down to the idea of like, you know, not wanting to take the personal risks, to put yourself out there, to admit where you might be, you know, have a blind spot. How do we help organizations get beyond that? How do we help individuals get beyond that? Because I feel like, you know, with all of the things that, that philanthropy is supposed to do and that the nonprofit sector is supposed to accomplish, we're nowhere near nowhere accomplishing those things. And, and it's not again because of.
[00:09:59] Speaker A: The money, nowhere near it now. Yeah, no, I like what you said very much and I like how you said it. I have wondered, you know, again, as a diagnostic is, how did we get to this place and if we could better understand that, can we find our way out? And I do think there were a time, you know, because it was in the beginnings of my career when 75% of Americans were giving. Now it's down to about 45% of giving households. So we've lost this tremendous volume.
And I wonder, you know, as, again, as a student of history, the empire declines when it's at its peak. And so when philanthropy was at its peak, did we get smug and complacent and just start to hire a bunch of administrators to run organizations? Because all we assumed we had to do do was reap what already had been sown. All we had to do was harvest.
Then we over harvested and under sewed. I do believe so. We got a generation, I believe, of kind of tactical administrators, not courageous curious leaders.
And so the sort of short sighted tactical administrator, as I said, has overharvested and under sown. And that's why we're in this spot, in this sort of what looks to be like a growing philanthropic desert. So now we have to bring in the courageous people who say, oh, no, I see a better way, and that it's going to take a long time. There are no easy wins, there's no low hanging fruit. You know, take all the silly tropes, right, Throw them away and say, folks, we, we've got a generation of hard work ahead of us. And if you're not committed to a 30 year pattern, you're not serious about this mission and you're not serious about the work of this nonprofit.
That's what I think takes courage. And then the curiosity, as you suggest, says, what are we missing? Where are we blind? What haven't we seen?
Andrew, one of my favorite quotes, I think it's just such a good encapsulation of human history was by Galbraith, John Kenneth Galbraith, who said, a revolution is the kicking down of an already rotted door.
So what we think happened suddenly happened slowly and we haven't paid attention to it. So if I could put it in vivid terms, what you and I are talking about is a willingness to look at institutional rot.
What's been happening has made us sluggish and slow and smug, where we listen to ourselves too much and not listen to discerning voices externally or critics.
And I think it's in that willingness to sort of bring it on and be humble and let people speak to us, our staffs, our donors, those who would support us, to open ourselves up to what we have not been and what we have missed, will start to create that turning point that you and I envision.
[00:13:06] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:13:06] Speaker D: Wow.
[00:13:07] Speaker C: There's a lot there. Okay, so I, I buy all that. I, I think this idea of long term institutional rot actually describes things really well.
I, I think for the, you know, for the layperson who's listening to this, they go, did you just say that I have to be in for this for the next 30 years?
Right, because you and I both know that every board, every CEO, every fundraiser thinks in fiscal years, right? So they're going to say, yeah, yeah, wait a minute, I got to deliver this number. Yeah, by, you know, next June. Oh, and by the way, the board didn't say anything to me when they built the plan, but they added an extra million on top because they want to spend it over here, whether we have supporters who can fund it or not.
[00:13:57] Speaker D: Right.
[00:13:58] Speaker C: So that's the on the ground reality. How do we help leaders bridge that gap?
[00:14:06] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. I think that is our great challenge, Andrew. So, you know, that's why I talk about the ultimate objective is to build a stronger community of shared purpose. That's a generation of work now then bring that back and then say what can we do this year? What can we do in two years? What can we do in three years? And simple things like stop just looking at what comes at you like dollars given it's not raised but dollars that are given to you and start asking, but what about the volume of donors? We keep looking at dollars or you know, if anybody's listening from another country, the monetary units that, that drop in, in our lap or come to us usually through long relationships and, and mission delivery.
So start looking at not just dollars in, but donors retained. Then start looking at the quality of the donor experience by listening to them, by conducting surveys and focus groups. What, what I conclude from, you know, a lifetime of observation and research is what I depict as, as donors want three things but in different measures.
To believe in an organization's purpose and mission. To feel as if they belong and are among kindred spirits and that they have an opportunity to make themselves better and their community better or their society or their world better. So to believe, belong and better.
So we've got to start then thinking about are we architects of a better donor experience? Are we providing what money can't? Why the real opportunity to genuinely believe, to firmly, fondly belong and be among kindred spirits and to better ourselves as we better our community. And by the way Andrew, the last statement I made better ourselves as we better our community comes from a 21 year old about 1738 who said that's the purpose of civic engagement. And that gentleman was Ben Franklin.
To better ourselves as we better our community. So you see, what I'm saying is start with the generational objective, then work your way and say we've got to move from gift getting to partnership building. We've got to move from the transactional to something that's more sustainable and inspirational and start blocking it out thematically and then say operationally what data are we looking at and what practices are we adopting to ensure that we move steadily toward that long term objective?
[00:16:50] Speaker B: Okay friends, let's take a quick break from today's conversation and talk about your leadership. Do you ever feel stuck or like you just don't know whether you're leading well or not? I know that's something that I've felt at times during my 25 year career leading people and teams.
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[email protected] all right, so this.
[00:18:14] Speaker C: This all makes good sense to me. Here's, here's my follow up.
And I think what you're talking about really aligns. You know, we, we talk quite a lot about the concept of treating every donor like a major donor.
[00:18:29] Speaker D: Right.
[00:18:29] Speaker C: And the ethos of that is as we look at the donor pyramid, if you will, or whatever you want to call the universe of givers today, what we believe we see is that participation rates are what they are because we've treated people like disposable, you know, income generators. We've said, I'm going to reach out to you. When I want you, I want you to stay over there. Otherwise, don't ask questions. Just, just send money and we'll do our thing because we're the experts and you don't know anything about it anyway, so just be quiet.
[00:19:04] Speaker D: Right.
[00:19:05] Speaker C: And, and most organizations take a, at least a modified approach with say, the top couple hundred supporters that, that pretty provide the lion share of their revenue.
But how do we start to treat everyone who is a constituent, whether they're a volunteer, a donor, an advocate or whatever else?
[00:19:25] Speaker D: Right?
[00:19:26] Speaker C: How do we try to give them the same kind of relational experience at scale that the top few hundred get because they write seven figure checks or they transfer seven figure assets to an organization?
And, and so I think that, know in our, in my mind that's one of the lynch pins of this.
[00:19:45] Speaker D: Right.
[00:19:47] Speaker C: But what I'm, what I'm conflicted by is just how fast change is coming in the donor community and how slow, yes. The nonprofit sector is to change.
[00:20:00] Speaker D: Right.
[00:20:00] Speaker C: I mean it is, it is like pushing the biggest boulder ever up.
[00:20:05] Speaker D: Right?
[00:20:06] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:20:06] Speaker C: And, and at the same time, you have this younger generation and multiple generations who are used to one click engagement on their phone and really elegant experiences in their consumer life that they expect to transfer into their philanthropy.
Yes, I'm not sure, save maybe two or three organizations that have been kind of at the forefront of this over the last couple years. I'm not sure that anyone in the sector's prepared for that.
And, and then put on top of that the fact that we have a generation of leaders about to age out of the marketplace, leading nonprofits. And I'm not sure there's been much sustainability and, and succession planning development done in a lot of organizations like that seems to me like the perfect storm for a really big mess.
[00:20:58] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:00] Speaker C: Who's doing this well right now?
[00:21:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, first of all, I think that's an excellent depiction of our current landscape, our current situation. All those factors are exactly right and I see them in exactly the same terms. And it's what motivates me. I think we might characterize ourselves as sort of philanthropic. Paul Revere's, you know, trying to warn that it's coming, it's coming, it's different. And you've got to be prepared. You know, it is a kind of a call to arms, but not in a military sense, but in a mustering of new energy and new attitudes.
So by virtue of advertising what I do, my values and purposes, and sometimes being provocatively so, I then attract clients who ascribe to at least most of what I'm saying. So I would say that virtually every one of my clients has elements of what you and I are talking about. And then we're trying to create a critical mass within.
I would say that I know of many enlightened advancement leaders who then will ask me to come in and work with the executive team and the board. And then we see progress, we see openness. So I don't want to, just as I wouldn't with myself, claim perfection or reaching the ideal. But you know, from, you know, people like Dickinson College, a small historic college created at the same time the Constitution was signed.
You know, I'm very proud of them and the direction they're moving in and the way they're evaluating performance.
I work with Hazelton, Betty Ford. I'm very proud in the movement that they're making toward that because the imperatives are real there.
And I could go on and on and cite, you know, the others that I've worked with. I was just out at the College of Western Idaho, a young, a young two year college. Andrew and it looked like maybe what we looked like in the 1820s.
They were beginning afresh. You know, they were trying to serve the people. They realized that higher education had to be put practical, that it had to try to improve the quality of life, that it had to contribute in tangible ways to the surrounding community, that it had to work on shared purpose. So, you know, in different places, I see great hope.
But, you know, we're beginning and it's a little bit like climbing the mountain and saying, oh, this is fun so far, until the legs start to burn and the lungs start to gasp for air. Then you realize what you're up against. So again, I may be mixing metaphors, but I've said over and over again one of my, again from history, one of the most dramatic metaphors I can share with people about what you and I are talking about is when European settlers moved west and were led, went in wagon trains, that one of the things that stunned them when they got to the Rockies. You know, it was relatively smooth going until they got to the foot of the hills of the Rockies. And what stunned them and scared them was the initial slopes were littered with the heirlooms dropped by previous generations that they realized they could not get over unless they gave up something from the past.
And I can't think of a better metaphor as we're going to have to give up the heirlooms that we've clung to for so long. We're not going to get over these philanthropic Rockies unless we make real sacrifice, leave something behind to get to a higher, better place.
[00:24:57] Speaker C: That is incredibly insightful and I think it's spot on. You know, it's one of the biggest challenges. I'm sure you have the same conversation, right, where, where a leader says, yes, I, I believe in that vision. I buy what you're trying to sell me.
And yet you need to accomplish that for us while preserving our annual fund and keeping, keeping our, you know, PNL exactly where it is this year or better, and not realizing that sometimes you may have to take a 2, 3, 4 year decline in, in annualized revenue to sort of reset the entire ecosystem in your organization for future growth and success. I don't see a lot of appetite for that.
[00:25:40] Speaker A: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And that's where the courage comes.
You got to build a bridge to the future. You've got to abandon, you know, past assumptions and you've got to be willing to endure short term loss to get to higher ground. That is it. That, that's the cure. That's the courage and yes, I don't see a lot of that, but I think realities will become such that it will become unavoidable and those choice will be forced on more organizations. And I'm afraid that's when most change occurs. And I'm afraid there will be a very high attrition rate before that reality that you painted so beautifully will be accepted.
[00:26:26] Speaker C: Yeah, I think you're right. I think that we are just a few years away from seeing the, the total number of non profits in the US decline fairly significantly. I just don't think that many of the, the. And it's, it's not necessarily all the smallest. It's not probably not all biggest, but I think there's a significant portion of organizations that are either going to be, have to merge.
[00:26:53] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:26:53] Speaker C: Or they're simply going to shut down because they, they don't have the tools to keep pace and they don't have the courage to, to do what's necessary to hold that off.
I, I'm really curious and I don't, I don't want to get either of us in hot water in the industry here, but where are the industry think tanks and, and convening bodies, you know, the CFRES, the AFPs. Oh man, I don't feel like I'm hearing this from anybody else.
[00:27:20] Speaker A: Oh man, now you're going to get me started. This is what, this is what I cannot like. What other industry would lose 40% of volume and then go and meet, you know, in a celebratory fashion and celebrate the successes of a few older customers who are still buying their products in large store. Yeah, yeah. Like Sears.
Yeah.
Come on folks, what is it about? So it's not just leadership, Andrew, and organizational leadership. We in the advancement field have to look at ourselves and say, who among us are using these convocations and these conferences to look at the unfolding landscape in an unsparing, objective way and to realize that peril is looming and looming ever closer. Where is that dialogue? The data is compelling. There's so many parallels, Andrew. I mean, my father worked for General Electric. It was created by Thomas Edison. It was in the Fortune 100 for 100 years and entrepreneurial forces disrupted and pushed it into relative oblivion compared to where it was then. Look at colleges and universities and you're going to see a closure of a significant. We don't know exactly when. It's always hard to tell. You know, maybe some will use the Adopt a Billionaire program and live longer than they will. But there are all these parallels that we've seen of disruption already occurring in the marketplace, in business and industry, in higher education. Right. And we don't think those same seismic forces are going to shake our ground and ultimately cause big chunks to fall off.
What on earth is the matter with us that you couldn't ask for more compelling, more encroaching evidence than what we have now?
[00:29:22] Speaker C: It is shocking to me.
Scary.
And, you know, I, you and I and a handful of others often talk about these things and in somewhat provocative ways. And, and every once in a while, I, I feel a little bit guilty because I, I know there's really great people in the industry going, of course I see it. I just don't have the tools to fix it.
[00:29:47] Speaker D: Right.
[00:29:48] Speaker C: And.
Or, you know, maybe personally I have the tools, but my boss won't allow it.
[00:29:53] Speaker D: Right.
[00:29:53] Speaker C: Or the board won't even have the conversation.
What's your advice and counsel to that frustrated development officer like? Where do they start? How do they begin to chip away at this, to even get a platform to be able to have the conversations that lead to the kind of change we're talking about?
[00:30:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
My first bit of advice is, you know, be what's missing.
So just don't curse the darkness. Try to light a flame through your own being, your own conduct, your own attitude, your own expressions, you know, extend to donors that, that, that you believe in the worth and dignity of every single one of them. Do what you can to listen to, to validate, to just, you know, make them feel as if they are in community with you. And, and don't worry about whatever is being expected of you. You know, be professional, of course, but be what's missing. And maybe through your modeling, you know, others will look to you. I think you probably have experienced something similar, Andrew, that whatever behaviors we modeled earlier in our careers didn't necessarily produce the results that we wanted. But now we have a younger generation coming to us saying, I remember you. Then I. I saw you. Then I modeled myself on what you were doing. And so, just like teachers, the return is long.
So start modeling the behaviors that you can. I always think modeling is the most important thing that we can do. The second thing is to bring evidence. Sometimes fundraisers talk in terms of hunches, or I think or I believe.
And I've learned that when you get to executive teams and boards, you better bring in hard data that shows the erosion of the philanthropic landscape. And the hard data is already inside your data. This is what strikes me, too, as every time we ask for a data poll and we look at longitudinal Patterns. There it is again, everything you and I are talking about. So it isn't out there, it's, it's, it's inside. So pull your own data and look at it objectively and look at the state of your philanthropic community and ask whether it's growing or, or depleting. And you and I know the answer. It's extraordinarily rare to see, you know, a richer philanthropic soil and the absence of erosion. It's extraordinarily rare. It's one in a million.
So look at your data and start becoming better about describing what's happening. And the third bit of advice is I've learned from studying change. As they say, you must critique the current system and you must put forward a better way in concrete terms. So just like your line of questioning, okay, what will work? What do we know works? And when you look at the anatomy of a big gift, Andrew, and you're right that we should treat every donor as a major donor. But when you look at the big gift, what do you see? It takes time, it takes multiple interactions, it takes honesty, it takes good, clear negotiation about what is and isn't impossible.
And keep saying, in our own data, we see that that major gift donor more often than not has been with us for at least 15 years, that we engaged at least two years of honest negotiation to get there.
And the only anomaly is when we put forward such a compelling concept that it attracted somebody who was on a 15 year journey somewhere else and got. I'm not finding it in my organization, but I'm hearing it over there. Yeah, the root system of giving is much deeper, much longer, and we keep looking for money on the table, low hanging fruit, you know, so you know my metaphors. We got to start growing our own orchards if we're going to have yields in the future. So, you know, it's broad evidence, but that's that, I mean, broad advice, but I think that's where we've got to begin, is look inside, produce your data and then start saying, you see, let's look at the anatomy of our own successes and learn from them and replicate them. And it's always a slower path to a more certain future, a more authentic path to a truer relationship.
[00:34:28] Speaker C: That's gold right there and so true.
I think that's a perfect place for us to end this conversation. This has been such a powerful discussion, Jim.
I am so glad that we sat down to have this chat. And I think we're going to have to have more in the future because this was really valuable. Thank you for being here. How do people reach you?
[00:34:51] Speaker A: Well, first of all, let me thank you for your courage and your curiosity and that I've got a few more years on you. So I look to people like you to carry the flame and I'm glad you're doing what you're doing.
[00:35:03] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:35:03] Speaker A: The best way to reach me is to connect on LinkedIn. I'm trying to like you. Start provocative but productive conversations about necessary change. Join the Conversation I always like likes, but join the conversation.
Have the courage of your convictions and share your curiosity with us so we can learn through your eyes what you see and learn together.
[00:35:29] Speaker C: Absolutely. Thanks again.
[00:35:36] Speaker B: Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the Rainmaker fundraising Podcast. I have two favors to ask before I let you go. First, if you enjoyed this episode, please rate us and review us on whatever podcast platform you use to listen to this show. It'll help us reach more people with the tips and insights that you find most valuable. My second favor is a little bit.
[00:35:55] Speaker C: Of a favor to ask, but also.
[00:35:57] Speaker B: A little bit of a gift to you. I write a daily substack newsletter called the Leadership Growth Newsletter. It's free to you and I write it to help people lead more effectively and in both life and at work. I'd love for you to click the link in the show notes and subscribe to that newsletter as well. Until next time, friends. I hope you make it a great day.
