Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:03] Speaker B: Welcome to the Rainmaker Fundraising Podcast, where we bring you tips and insights to help you raise more money for your organization and lead more effectively. I'm your host, Andrew Olson. Hey, everybody, this is Andrew Olson with the Rainmaker Fundraising podcast. I'm here with my Good friend Nathan LaGrange today. Nathan, welcome to the show.
[00:00:21] Speaker A: Thanks, Andrew. Great to be here.
[00:00:23] Speaker B: So, Nathan, you. You've got, you know, 20 plus years in the sector.
You're currently the executive director at Oasis Rest International.
You and I have been connecting on LinkedIn and hanging out and, and got a chance to actually see each other face to face at the Christian Leadership alliance conference. It feels like it was six months ago, but I think it was only like three weeks ago, which just tells you how, how time, time is moving these days.
And I wanted to have this conversation because what you all deal with on a very sort of visceral, real level in your organization is helping people sort of rest and recover from burnout and stress and all the things that ministry leaders and others in the nonprofit sector experience.
So I'm really excited to have this conversation. Before we get into that, tell us a little bit more about yourself, your family, kind of how you got to where you are.
[00:01:25] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure.
Let me plug you real quick. I have loved and enjoyed your writings.
[00:01:31] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:01:32] Speaker A: You do a phenomenal job, I mean, of taking very complex ideas and synthesizing them so that goofballs like me can actually understand them. So I so appreciate that. And your other podcast as well. I mean, there's a wealth of information in your back catalog, so well done, man.
[00:01:46] Speaker B: I appreciate that.
[00:01:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I would say I never, I never thought I'd be in this seat in any way, shape or form.
Grew up, you know, in a, in a faith tradition that knew about God, but was a lot more ritual and religion than it was relationship type deal.
And so I think for me, coming into faith at a, at a later age, I came, I came to faith when I was in my mid-20s because of a gorgeous blonde that happens to be my wife now, 30 years. But, you know, God has his way of inviting you into his kingdom in any way that he wants. So a lot of grace in those moments. But I think, you know, I went into the corporate world right out of college, worked at a major hospital, but really in our local church was, was just connected with some different ministries in there and through a number of different circumstances, situations, they actually invited me to come on board at the, at the church. And they were like, we don't know what we want you to do here, but we want you here. And they, this is. I mean, this will date me. But they're like, do you know what a website is? And I'm like, I, yeah, maybe. I don't know. Is there a book on that? So, yeah, I kind of came. Came through the back door of the church, but we had a, we had a pastor there on staff who actually looked at my wife a couple of years in and she goes, your husband has a call on his life, but he's got an anger problem. And she literally thrust this stack of books at my wife and said, he needs to read these. And it was, it was, it was wonderful. He was right. But yeah, it just kind of began this journey. You know, I got, I had my bachelor's degree in telecommunications, went back to the kind of Bible school on a scantron sheet, like literally correspondence, like in the mail days. But that, that evolved into pastoring young adults, which was awesome. And I know you have three kids, and we had three kids at the time too. So raising your three kids in an environment of young adults is always a challenge.
They were way more smart Eloqui at 5 than I ever expected them to be. But we had wonderful, rich experiences there. But we also had a deep love for music. Music was always a big part of my life. Even younger, I actually went to college on a vocal performance scholarship. So, Andrew, I can sing you an Italian aria if you want me to, but I won't.
But yeah, it was. God kind of repackaged all that and ended up connecting with a guy that's the complete opposite of me and one of my best friends in the world. And we just started writing and creating music together and music geared for the local church. And we saw a lot of great songs out there, but it was, you know, not an indictment, but it was kind of a lot of navel gazing songs, songs. And we're like, you know, can we like, can we create songs that kind of lift you up, like, you know, get you to focus on somebody that's not you just for a moment. And nothing wrong with those other songs, but yeah, that just kind of began a crafting and creating. We started making albums and ended up, you know, long story short, signing a contract with Integrity Music way back when. So this was awesome. This was kind of the, the golden age for us. But I really felt a pull. We lived in, in the suburban world. I felt a pull to the downtown context. And this is long before downtowns were cool, or at least ours was not. You know, you were More likely to get mugged than to get evangelized down there. But, yeah, we ended up leaving that church, planting a church downtown.
And I say all this because I think there were some significant events back then that led to where I am now. Okay. And as in all of our lives, I mean, that's. That's kind of the unfolding story. Right? You don't know what's happening in real time. But we had. We had left that larger church to go plant downtown. If you've ever started anything new, I mean, that's just tough.
We'd actually moved from the suburbs into a downtown context. And even though it was, like 10, 12 miles away, it might as well have been a totally different world.
There was a kind of a suburban mindset of almost everybody went to church in downtown. Nobody did.
We also adopted from the Philippines. So we adopted internationally. And, you know, those of you that are adopted or have adopted, like, that's just tough. Like, there's nothing romantic about it. I believe it's a beautiful call, but it was just hard introducing this little girl into our family.
And then my wife lost her parents. Boom, boom, back to back, within 50 days of each other, they were fine. One minute, dad was dead. 52 days later, mom was dead.
[00:06:22] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:06:23] Speaker A: And we were devastated. So I think all of those events in isolation would have been, like. They would have been hard, but somewhat manageable.
They stacked on each other, and because of that, we just found ourselves in a really difficult spot.
We had great elders around us, great church community, those kind of things. But we ended up taking our four kids and relocating our chaos to Europe for about six weeks, actually, just our team there was like, guys, you got to get away. My wife was like, you got to get me out of here. And we came back from that experience really enjoying the space, like, the opportunities to be in some beautiful places. We know people around Europe, but we were missing a face, somebody to help us process where we were in life at that moment. And this would have been back in 2014.
So, you know, we came back from that experience going space was great.
Face was missing. Could we become that for people? Like, where do pastors go when they need pastoring? Where does a missionary go when they've got marital issues? Where does a Christian leader go when they've got, you know, some kind of challenge in their life that they don't want to share with everybody? Yeah, we become that. And so that. That really began the journey. We actually discovered what is now Oasis Rest International as a part of that journey. And through God's glorious humor. Here I am getting to serve as the executive director for the last four years, so.
[00:07:50] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:07:50] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:07:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that backstory with us. I think that's incredibly helpful.
And you know what, what really got me curious about this is some conversations that I have with, with organizations every day. Right. Where and you know, oftentimes I talk about the idea that, you know, when someone comes to me and says I have a fundraising problem, almost always what they really have is a leadership problem.
[00:08:14] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:08:14] Speaker B: And just manifests itself in revenue.
And more and more these days, one of the biggest problems that we hear leaders talking about is this idea that like they are at their wits end, they're burned out, they, they've exhausted all the tools that they have in their toolkit and don't know what to do next. But to your point, there's no one they can talk to. Right. If they go to their board, they fear that they, you know, they'll get removed, they'll get sidelined, they'll be out looking for a job. They can't talk to, you know, their staff because they need to put on this brave face. I know I'm in control. I know everything. You know, I'm here to serve you, all that stuff.
And they don't really have those deep relationships where they can call on someone and say, hey, I just, I just need to talk. Right.
[00:08:58] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:08:58] Speaker B: And so, you know, I had never heard of your organization before you and I connected. I didn't know there was a resource for something like this. Talk to us a little bit about like, what is it that you actually do on a day to day basis for ministry leaders and pastors and missionaries and anybody else who comes to you?
[00:09:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I would affirm everything that you're saying. I'm, I'm a very optimistic, glass half full, I mean, glass overflowing kind of guy. Just in typical. So it's not a, it's not a scare tactic. But I do think you're seeing such a large amount of leaders, both in churches, not for profits, mission endeavors, etc, that are just burning out at an alarming rate.
And I think some of that is, is cultural. Like there is a, you know, it's almost like we don't, in the kingdom of God, we don't like go, oh Andrew, yeah, he's a lazy guy. He's the best. You know, that's not, we don't affirm that but, but we do affirm the, the opposite. Oh, he's killing it. He's crushing it. I mean, we use like violent language for all the, the good endeavors. You know, you want to hire Andrew, he's a hard worker or whatever, he'll get the job done. And so, you know, you have this kind of paradox that goes on inside of the, the Christian world that says, hey, we're supposed to be faith filled, you know, trusting in the Lord, moving it at a certain speed, and yet we find ourselves running so fast towards, you know, getting the right 990 and finalizing the annual report and making sure all of our budgets are where they need to be that it just runs a leader into the ground.
So it's like I look at this idea from a macro perspective and it's like Jesus says, follow me.
Well, follow me into what? Exhaustion, burnout, an unrelenting pace.
Or follow me into learning the unforced rhythms of, of grace.
And it's like one of those is so invitational, but it's so slow and it's really hard for a guy like me. I am, I am as type A as it comes. I am not a monk, I am not a mystic. I fight against these. You know, even as you and I are talking, I am consciously thinking, nathan, slow down your speech. You talk really, really fast. I mean, I'm excited about these things, but I have that drive inside of me. And I think in our culture we appreciate that so much more and we affirm that and award that and reward that so much more than that man or woman who says, I'm going to go at a sustainable pace, I am in this for the long haul and I'm going to do really deep work both in my life so that that can express itself in the organization. You know, I think about not for profits from this standpoint, almost in a, in a hierarchy term. It's like you have boards, right? You've got well meaning men and women that are on boards, wonderful people.
And they're there for a myriad of reasons. I mean, it can be really good, like, hey, even this cause. Or sometimes I think board members are like, it's like they have to fulfill community service and being on this board is supported their communities.
You got these extremes. But I think sometimes in, in the board culture they're often successful or, or moving in that direction. Businessmen and women who are maybe not running at the most sustainable pace themselves.
And here, you know, this is the fourth board that they're on and there's always some underlying issues there, but I think the board sometimes sets that pace of speed and fast and budgets and scalability and all These kinds of things. And then they hire a leader who reflects that same thing, because somebody who can just make everything bigger, better, stronger, faster. So I think, you know, and this is what was fascinating, you know, even you and I meeting there at the, at the Christian Alliance Conference, the ecfa, the, the, you know, the proverbial bean counter accreditation side of a lot of not for profits and churches, the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, it's a mouthful.
I think what was fascinating about them, their leadership, very courageously and I think very spirit led, stepped in about five years ago and started to study the direct correlation between financial giving and sustainability and the care of the leader. Because there is a direct correlation there.
It's kind of a duh. But I think they had this in the beginning parts of COVID and their president, Michael Martin, wonderful man, and Jake Lapp there as well. They started to see many leaders start to fall. Like they're falling and the leader is doing something immoral or whatever, doing something that they would normally never do if they were well rested. So again, I'm always like, tell me about the last great argument you had with your spouse whenever you were super tired. Like, tell me how that one went. Well, most leaders are operating from that space. And so the ECFA went, oh my gosh, you know, we're seeing these leaders fall and then we're seeing the donations of the partnerships or the investments from other people start to fall as well. Is there a correlation? And so they invited the, the Barna group, David Kinnaman there in the Barner group, to actually let know we're bean counters. Let's put some stats on this. And yes, overwhelmingly, that donor or that, that very generous partner in your organization, if something happens to the leader that directly affects their giving, that directly affects their desire to want to partner with you. And so it's like, okay, can we take better care of the leader? So the ECFA has actually come out with seven standards for leader care, which I think are fascinating. These are not quote unquote requirements with really strong recommendations and suggestions to say, let's not shift the focus off of finances, but let's expand it and let's, let's, include the leader and let's make it the board's job of caring well for the leader. And let's, let's put some emphasis on that. And I mean, we, over at Oasis Rest, you know, we're clapping our hands and celebrating, going, oh my gosh, yes.
[00:14:44] Speaker B: Finally you get it right.
[00:14:45] Speaker A: Finally. And it's again, it's, it's it's just one of those things that I think 20, 30 years ago, boards were just crossing T's and dot nice and faithfully. So, and I don't mean that in a, in a condescending way, but I don't think there was much thought about caring for that, that man or woman that was at the helm, the leader. So I think it, I think it cascades down. So if you've got a board that understands we need to care for the leader, the leader knows that they're cared for by the board. Now all of a sudden the leader could trans transfer that down into the different departments, into their staff. And I think so much of it is pace.
How, what is the pace of our organization? If I'm constantly looking at the development department and I'm like, dad, garment, you got to do this, this, this, this and this. Well, that's probably a reflection of me, right? That's probably a reflection of my pace and my inability to quiet myself and be still and trust that the Lord is going to work some of these out. That's not to say that we, we, we don't have action and we don't have seasons of busy, but if your whole, if your season becomes a lifetime of busy hurry, you're in, you're in trouble. Like, you're just in trouble. You will make decisions that you never would make. You know, it's this commercial. You're not you and you're hungry. You know, you're.
[00:16:02] Speaker B: Yeah, totally right. And it's, it's not even like, will you make illicit decisions? Right, right. I mean that, I'm sure that's part of it, but sometimes it's just, will you make bad decisions?
[00:16:12] Speaker A: Right.
[00:16:13] Speaker B: You know, I remember a study years ago, I, I think it was the, maybe the National Highway Safety Board or something.
And, and they, they essentially said if you are, are sort of living on a sustained cycle of less than five hours of sleep a night, you're basically intoxicated when you drive.
[00:16:30] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely.
[00:16:31] Speaker B: Same kind of thing, right?
[00:16:32] Speaker A: In fact, I had a very good friend that was a resident, medical resident, many years ago, and he was participating in a study to measure how well residents, when they came off their 20 plus hour shift, they would stick him in a simulator and let him drive. And your results are exactly right. Is as if he was, you know, I talked to him, he'd be like, Well, I hit five people in 3D or on my way, you know, home in the simulator. And I'm like, this is nuts because I, I think we have, we have the, the, the problem of thinking we don't have limits. I don't like to admit I have limits, but I actually do. I, I require sleep, I require rest. And you know, as a parent, you know, and now as a, as a grandparent, you know, I watch my three year old granddaughter. I can tell when she needs a nap and she's like, you know, she'll, she'll fight against it a little bit, but then she'll go to sleep. As adults, I'm like, I'm good. I'll get all the rest I need when I'm dead, like, totally.
[00:17:32] Speaker B: That resonates with me so much. I, I tell people that, you know, that I work with, I have two speeds, full and off, right there, there's nothing in between.
[00:17:41] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:17:42] Speaker B: Except about two or three times a year because I, I don't, I also don't get sick throughout the year, right? But about two or three times a year, I get so sick that I'm just down for the count, right? And it's, it's as if my body is saying, hey, you've, you know, you've let this battery drain down to like when it's sucking dirt off the ground, right? And, and you have to recharge this. So I'll spend two days just sleeping, right? Take a weekend and just, you know, crash.
And then I say to myself, okay, I'm good for the next four months, good for the next five months, right? And, and the reality is, well, hey, stupid, you should actually do some different things so that you don't get into that challenge, right?
[00:18:21] Speaker A: I mean, that's a problem we all have. And I always in, in those kind of things. And I have to ask myself the same question. Where did that come from? Or you know, to use the, the Genesis account. Who, who told you that?
[00:18:33] Speaker B: Right?
[00:18:34] Speaker A: Who told you that was a good way? Because you learned it from somewhere. Like, you learned it by, you know, nature, nurture, whatever. You learned it in some environment that's the, the voice of some distant teacher or a parent or a first boss. That's like, Andrew, if you don't work hard, you know, it's like you can hear their voice in your head and you have to say, is that, is that true? Is that a true voice that's telling me to run myself to sickness?
Hmm. Maybe that's not the right voice. Maybe I shouldn't be listening to that one.
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You know, I want to go back to something else you said. You know, you talked about the idea that, like, if the board cares well for the executive and the executive cares well for their staff.
You and I talk a little bit about this when we were together in Dallas a few weeks ago. But it reminds me of a study done by Harvard Business School, Right. Called the Service Profit Chain. And I don't know if you're familiar with it or not, but I'll link to it in the show notes. And essentially what it was was a study done by several Harvard Business School professors looking at what were the key indicators of an organization's likelihood to generate significant revenue and profit for their business. Right.
And going into it, people, you know, I think the prevailing thought was if you take great care of your customers, you're gonna, you're gonna have wealth and profit. Right. And what they discovered was it was actually whether or not an organization's leadership took good care of their team, of their people.
[00:20:29] Speaker A: Right.
[00:20:30] Speaker B: And what they found was when the leader invests in the people and the people feel well cared for, well equipped, you know, they don't, don't feel like they're being run ragged, they show up well for their customers, which in turn translates to increased revenue and profit. Right. So this is something in the sort of, in the professional services industry that, that I got exposed to maybe 20 years ago and have always said, yeah, this logic makes a lot of sense to me. It's sort of stupid to think that it wouldn't. Right, Right. But to see it also playing out in, in the Barna data is, is, you know, confirming that, but also like, I think sort of conflicting because it then says to us, well, now that you know this information, what are you going to do?
[00:21:11] Speaker A: What are you going to do with it? Yeah. And knowing that whatever you choose to do with this is going to get a visceral reaction from either side, for sure.
[00:21:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:20] Speaker A: If you, if you choose to just push yourself and just whatever, I'm going to, you know, dismiss the data and I'm just going to go forward.
How's that going to work? Out in your marriage, Talk to me about your kids. Is that going to work out in your relationships? Like, we just have too many people that we probably know personally who ended the race too soon because they were running at a speed that was never sustainable and they floated. They. They did something that just imploded. So. But you also have to understand there's going to be a visceral reaction if you decide to peel back, if you decide to say, yes, let's do a better job of caring for ourself for our staff. Let's be intentional about it. You're going to get people that are like, what are you doing? What are you guys lazy? What's, what's the deal? So, you know, you just have to be prepared for both voices coming from both ends, because that's a. We in, in our organization, we call it a sacred contradiction. I love things that are contradiction. Like, I got a little rebellious streak in me. I think we all.
[00:22:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:13] Speaker A: But I found that it was, it wasn't just a contradiction. It's actually a sacred contradiction. It's an invitation that is so vastly different. You know, if you go back to the, the Old Testament side of things, it's like we're out here making bricks without straw and we've got a whip at our back non stop telling us to make more, produce more, be more, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
You know, different in that environment, we actually get affirmed for it. They, they would die if they did. Yeah, we're going to die, but we're going to die with a lot of nice cars and big houses productively and accolades. Yeah, yeah, we're going to be featured keynote speakers, but we're close to death. But I think the invitation from that is to say, hey, there's a, there's a way that seems right to a man or a woman, but in the end it leads to death. Am I, am I, am I actively participating in some kind of way or path that is leading to my demise? And therefore. And again, it's not just me. There's going to be a ripple effect. There's going to be fallout. So what's, you know, what's the price that we're willing to pay to see our legacies like, somewhat implode at times? And again, I've seen it. We know the news stories. Oh, probably personally. Yeah.
[00:23:22] Speaker B: You know, it's, it's interesting that the whole idea of a visceral reaction on both sides is so true. I, I have been so. I was, I was working with another organization several years ago. And we were. We were talking about trying to transform the culture in the organization to. To be more like what we're talking about. And, And I remember sitting with the C suite for this organization, and. And one of them looked at me halfway through the conversation and said, can we just get on with this crap, stop talking about our feelings and get back to the work.
And I remember saying to that person, like, I think you misunderstand the culture is the work.
[00:23:58] Speaker A: Yes. Yes.
[00:24:00] Speaker B: Because none of the rest of the things that we want to do and want to accomplish and need to deliver to shareholders, all that kind of stuff, none of that matters or is possible without people. And if we don't care for people, like everyone that you think is amazing, that's going to deliver those results, they're going to walk out the door because someone somewhere is going to offer them something better. Right.
And so I think that's, like, that's what I want people to understand, particularly chief executives that don't think that they need to recalibrate.
[00:24:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And those board directors as boards. Right.
[00:24:34] Speaker B: And to go back to your point about, like, seeing this in the fundraising results at Dickerson Baker, we study.
We do two studies a year, and one of the things that we look at is leadership and how they relate to development staff. Right.
The number one indicator of an organization's likelihood for fundraising success when it comes to relationship fundraising is whether or not the CEO is fully invested in the process with them. Right. And it's not just about standing there to your point, with a whip behind their back saying, go get more money. Right. But it's about caring for the people and equipping them and helping them feel valued in the process, and all the things that we know leads to these better outcomes. Right. And so I think there's a lot of data that supports this, but there's also this sort of innate reaction, at least in guys like me. Right. Of. Of how do I power down and not feel like a failure. Right. So talk to us about, like, what are the things that you, you and your team have discovered are, you know, meaningfully beneficial to a leader who's struggling with this? How. How do they actually reset things?
[00:25:40] Speaker A: Sure. I. I think to. To your point, you know, about the CEO and the, and the, the development team, I think we would tell all development teams that great fundraising is. Is great relationships. Like, it takes relationships. Right. Nobody wants to be an atm. I mean, these are all. These are all, duh, all those things.
What. How's that working with your relationship between CEO and donor development Is there a relationship being built there? Because relationships take time.
[00:26:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:07] Speaker A: They take intentionality. They take knowing things about each other that may have nothing to do with fundraising. And that's okay. That's how, you know, that's how we train our development teams to almost. They're almost like many pastors out there, you know, with donor discipleship and going through tough seasons or joyful seasons with people. How does your, if your CEO has no margin in their life, if your fundraising team has no margin in their life, how are they going to develop the kind of relational capacity and the slowness of speed that it takes to see the mission resolve? I, I don't think they can. I think it's impossible. So it's like you have to, you have to carve out intentional time and space to be together in those, in those types of ways. Well, yeah, I, here's what we've seen. And, and I say this as a, as a patient, not a doctor, as a student, not a teacher. Right. I am just as much in the foray, I will throw myself under the bus in all these things. Like these are ha. These have to stay checked because you're.
[00:27:02] Speaker B: Type A, you throw yourself at the front of the bus.
[00:27:03] Speaker A: So it's throw myself at the front of the bus and then drag my bleeding leg to drive the bus because we're not getting there fast enough.
Yeah, I think we, we operated on, on a couple of different planes and a lot of things in Oasis REST rhyme because we find it, it helps us. So we have an acronym called Retreat, Encouragement, Safety, Transformation, rest. So this is our, our little acronym that we, we kind of live by and we, we offer the rest. You need those four things for the life you lead. And that means a very customized personalized retreat moment, a three to seven day moment in time where you're being poured into you who are so used to pouring out you who are so used to taking advantage of every opportunity and never having an end of the day and all that kind of stuff. This is an opportunity for you to peel away from all of that and just be loved, served both practically from the standpoint of you're going to get high hospitality, you're going to get food that you love, you're going to have all these kind of things around you, maybe even possibilities to jump off on some recreational type thing at one of our Oasis locations. But you're. So we're going to give you space in a beautiful way, but we're also going to provide you with a family base, with a highly trusted Highly skilled, highly trained man or woman or a couple who's going to be able to help you navigate some of the things in life. And, and here's why I think our acronym again it's, you know, if you want to call it a program, it's a program. It works way in the background. You would never know it, but now you would because I've told you it.
But we often ask people, which two of those things do you need? 100% and I don't mean 99, I do mean 100. 100 of the people who come to us and we, we served 1975 people last year.
100% of them say I need a retreat. Great. What's the other one? The other one is a great tell, you know, that kind of glance eye into what's happening in your life currently in this season because we don't want to give you something you don't need. I mean I used to say the church is great at answering questions that nobody's asking. Well, we want to be great at answering questions you're actually asking or involved, engaged with. So the retreat side for us is incredibly important and I think it can be both episodic. But I think as we'll see, you can do this daily as well. How do you retreat away from responsibilities? And you know, you had mentioned older people saying hey, when are we going to get to the real work? You know and this is not dismissive generation. But that was somehow how they thought. I mean my, my grandfather used to shake my hand, not hug me.
So like, okay, it's a little different world. But I think, I think we're coming to the place now where maybe 20 years ago, 25 years ago when I started in ministry, if you would have told me about this thing, I would have probably patted you on the head, Andrew and said that sounds nice. You know, fast forward. We've got a lot of eyes on this these days. You've got, you know, places like the ecfa but you've got a lot less. It's kind of a destigmatized, demystify this, this type of lifestyle of going a little bit slower so retreating away from responsibilities. I was teaching this a couple of weeks ago. It was a men's, it was a men's breakfast kind of thing. And the room was so gloriously split up on my left, literal like older generation guys in their 70s and 80s, they had war hats on etc guys on my far right, much younger, 20s, 30s, you know, the kids were running around over here and in the Middle were guys like me in their 50s. So I always ask the question, what do you think of when I say the word retreat?
Well, the. The older generation was a little closer to me, and they were like, never surrender. Don't throw that one flag. You know, all these kind of awesome things. The guys on the, on the far side of the room, the 20s and 30s, they were like solitude, silence. Like, I mean, okay, so you've had this split dichotomy already. When I say one word, the guys in the middle were a little pulled in both directions. But I, I asked the question, okay, what did Jesus. What was. What was Jesus in retreat? How did Jesus treat retreat?
And it's like, okay, my Bible and yours says that he often withdrew to lonely places. Well, Greek scholars, what does often mean? Well, it means often, like, regularly. So there's. There's a pattern that Jesus shows us of withdrawing often to lonely places. To do what? Well, I think when you retreat, you. You reflect like you have space to reflect. I have a massive action bias. I need to learn the discipline of a reflective bias as well. And that comes across the board. That's in my relationship with God. My. My. My wife, my family, my friends. There has to be a reflective time for me. So retreating away from responsibilities to reflect and to deepen that relationship that I have with the Lord, like, that's. That's in my world. So we offer retreat an opportunity for you to be invited away. And in our organization, it is at no cost to the guest, which I know makes all of our fundraising friends go, how do they do that?
Okay, yeah, so you're retreating away, away from responsibilities. You're out of context. You know, Mark Batterson is famous for saying, you know, change of place, change of perspective, that kind of thing that is necessary in our lives. So you away from responsibilities, you are cared for and loved. And this is. This is beautiful. The encouragement side for us, I think, comes in three. Three ways.
God's presence, you know, David from the biblical story, strengthened himself in the Lord. Well, how often do I do that?
I strengthen myself in Netflix, or I strengthen myself in, you know, some mindless. Whatever. It's like God's presence is a strength, strengthening and encouraging space to be in. And so I've got. I've got God's presence. I've got encouragement and God's promises.
I don't think you would be shocked, but I think a lot of congregations would be shocked when I ask, how often do you think your pastor spends time in God's Word for his or Herself.
[00:32:39] Speaker B: Well, I'm going to stop you right there. So I'm a PK and I can tell you my dad has passed away at this point. But I can tell you that sadly, the only time I saw him in the, in scripture was when he was preparing for a sermon.
[00:32:54] Speaker A: 100 and it's, you know, again, that's. We're not shaming your dad. That's, that's unfortunately norm, because everything is so fast paced. Sunday is always coming and if you're a larger church, you got multiple expressions across the weekend and satellites and all this kind of stuff. You know, it's like, and again, I, I always hesitate and I always want to say things in a, in a spirit of humility. This is not an, just an observation. You know, I think in the, in the 80s and 90s, we, we built churches on the backs of very charismatic, strong, almost business type leaders who just knew how to rally a crowd and, and make things bigger, better, stronger, faster. And obviously some beauty has come out of that. But I think a lot of brokenness came out of that because those men and women, instead of spending time in prayer with the Lord or, or taking advantage of his presence or reading God's promises for themselves, they were always building for something else.
[00:33:44] Speaker B: Totally. Yeah.
There was no support structure.
[00:33:48] Speaker A: Right.
[00:33:48] Speaker B: There was no one standing behind them saying, hey, have you checked in lately?
[00:33:52] Speaker A: Right. And the fruit quote unquote was, well, we're opening up another campus and well, we got another million dollars in the budget. And it's like, yeah, but the tree was dying. Like that was like the last vestiges of fruit because inside of that man or woman was just plain plummeting. So, you know, I'll ask, I'll ask pastors a lot. You know, I'll say, tell me, tell me what God's speaking to your heart, you know, and that could get off theologically. But they'll tell me about their latest sermon series or the building campaigner, and I'll let them, I'll let them talk. And then when they're done, I'll say, that's awesome. Not what I asked you.
And then you just get this really sad look and you go, it's okay. Like, this is a no shame zone that's just so busy. So, so we, we offer that retreat away from responsibilities, to be encouraged in God's presence. You can be encouraged in his promises for you. Like read the Bible for you.
[00:34:43] Speaker B: What is not for your organization.
[00:34:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And not even for your wife or family.
[00:34:48] Speaker B: What about you?
[00:34:49] Speaker A: Like, think about you. So and then I think the other beauty of the encouragement side, and this is why space and face matter to us again. I. I have a lot of friends that work in the space world where they offer space to ministry leaders. I have wonderful friends that work in the coaching and biblical deep free face world. And that's wonderful. We just combine those two things together. And that encouragement in that space comes from God's presence, his promises, his people.
When's the last time that someone genuinely encouraged you? Not manipulatively, not like sometimes we do with our wives. And like, hey, baby, you look really good tonight. It's like you've got this manipulative thought behind it.
[00:35:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:29] Speaker A: You know, if you're a pastor serving in a congregation, if you're on the mission field, if you're leading a not for profit. When's the last time someone encouraged you with no strings? Like, just told you who you were in Christ and what they saw in you? And you'd be amazed. Oh, you know, the almost 2,000 guests that come through. Every guest survey that comes back, it's like, I left so encouraged. Like, they said this or they asked that, or they sat with me in this moment. So the retreat, the encouragement, the safety side, all of us need somebody, and maybe it's a small group of people that we feel safe with. There's that famous Chronicles of Narnia, you know, Is Aslan safe? Oh, he's not safe, but he's good. You know, that kind of thing. Well, God has to be safe to us to run to, right? He's a shelter.
He holds me in the palm of his hand. Hide it in the cleft of the rock. Like, this is a safety from a sheltering standpoint, to be able to recover. But I need people, too. I need flesh and blood that I can unpack a story or who will sit with me. You know, Job's friends, we make fun of them. They did so well in the beginning until they opened their mouth. So it's like we offer that safety spot and. And you can tell us whatever you want to tell us. We do not report to a board unless there's something, you know, inappropriate or illegal that's going on. We don't have to report anything to a board. We're like Switzerland. We're neutral. We are for God. We are for you.
And you would be amazed at how many people they're like, I've talked for four hours. Yeah, you must have needed to share that. And our. Our staff. I have an incredible executive leadership team. I've got awesome staff around the world. They are the best at rest, but they're like, Nathan's the mouth. The rest of them are ears. And they are really good ears. Like, they know how to listen. And they hold it so well. They're not trying to extrapolate their own story or compete with you for the victory or the tragedy or whatever. They're just holding your story. And when you've been hospitably loved on and fed and offered great space to sleep, now all of a sudden you're like dumping out your soul. And it's funny, on a trajectory. The reason we say three to seven about that three or four day mark is where things start to shift.
Something starts to break. Uh, and it doesn't always have to, you know, it doesn't always have to be tears, but oftentimes it is. But it's a lot of, you know, I've never told anybody this. And we're, we're ready for that. We're ready for that moment because they finally slowed down. They finally got some good sleep physically. They finally started connecting with God. And now all of a sudden they're like, I.
This is what's really eating at me. It's on that safety side, really big. The last one, the t. The transformation. We want to see transformation in people's lives. We don't want you to walk, you know, out of here the same way you walked in. And we can help you on that pathway. It's like, what would you, what, what area of your life would you like to see transformation? And we kind of, we break it up into four. And again, it's just because it's easy to remember life, love, leadership, legacy. Where do you need to see transformation, you know, in your life and your personal relationship with the Lord or, you know, you've the spirit of God breathed life into you. What are you doing with that? Like, do you need transformation? Are you stuck? How do we. How do we help you in this moment? It's your loves. What about your relationships with your spouse or your kids or your, your community, your city? How does that look like? What are the loves that you have in your life that may have a bit of a rub, or you need to ask for forgiveness so there's some space for reconciliation in that moment. What's that look like to transform there? What about leadership? You know, obviously to what you guys do. And we're very vested in that space, feeling like if we can help the health of a leader, we can help the health of the whole organization. So leadership side and Then legacy. Like I said, as, as now a grandfather of two, I'm like, I think about legacy a lot. What am I leaving behind?
Because there'll be a day when I'm not here and there's really good chance that my granddaughters will be. Yep. What am I leaving behind? How do I get intentional? Do I want a legacy of speed and building and accomplishing and conquering, or do I want to speak my. My three year old grand again? I have too many examples for her. If, if you have grandfathers or grandmothers that are listening, they're like, yeah, we get it. Totally.
You will be so happy, Andrew, if you get to that space where you're like, why did we have kids again? Why didn't we just have grandkids? Because it's awesome.
My granddaughter loves to help papa feed the birds.
[00:39:48] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:39:48] Speaker A: Need her to help me feed the birds? No.
It takes me about 20 seconds to dump bird seed into the bird feeder. It takes my little granddaughter and I about 20 minutes and about a third of the bird seed actually lands in the feeder. The rest is everywhere. But here's the cool thing.
She just wants to be with me.
Like there's not a task really that we're accomplishing, but we just want to be with each other. And I think as leaders, we sometimes forget that God's like, like I, I made all this stuff. Like I'm good, like I, I have great.
I just want to be with you in the work. There is a witness to the work that definitely needs some transformation. And I think if we can pass that on to our kids and our grandkids or great grandkids, there's a withness to the work that will allow for some sustainability for the rest of your life.
[00:40:43] Speaker B: So it's so interesting you say that. So I was, we live on a little farm. I was building a pen for some new baby goats that we have this weekend. Two of my daughters helped me. My seven year old was one of them. And you know, we're putting this fence up and she says, hey papa, how about if I sit on your lap while we build this fence?
[00:40:59] Speaker A: Perfect.
[00:40:59] Speaker B: I thought, well, that's the least efficient way I could think of to build a fence.
But in her mind, it was just about the experience.
[00:41:08] Speaker A: We just want to be with you. Yeah, it's again, I think, I think for your high capacity, you know, your ambitious. There's nothing wrong with ambition. Selfish ambition. That's totally different. There sure is always good. I mean, for the kingdom of God, that's great. But I Think we've lost the witness.
And I think sometimes, you know, if you go, if you go back to that, you know, very well known Matthew 11:28 type verse, you know, there is a, there's a way to be with God and to learn. You know, he says, you know, are you tired? Are you worn out? Are you burned out on religion? I mean, I think there's a lot of people listening that would go, yes, yes and double yeah, come away with me now. Here's, here's. I think one of the biggest issues too, and I love our name, Oasis Rest International because it, I can just show it on a notebook and people are like, hey, what's that about? And I'm like, I Bet you're about 75% of the way there. I bet you we do. Let me just fill in this little piece. But I think so many of our leaders, so many of our well intentioned leaders, nobody starts off saying, I'm going to blow up my life, I'm going to wreck my marriage, I'm going to estrange my kids, I'm going to leave destruction everywhere I go. Nobody starts off like that. Like maybe three people, I don't know who they are, but I think what happens is you, you get into this pace and now all of a sudden you're, you're like a, a person wandering around in the desert looking for water. Like you're just, you're so parched, you're dehydrated, you're making like hallucinating decisions because you're, you're just, you're part, your lips are cracked, your mouth is cottony and you're irritated with everybody. You just want water. And it's like the enemy of our soul will present you with what you think is water. And it's just a mirage. It's just a mirage. It's like I see the glistening, you know, waters over there and you go, and it's what's Netflix? Or it's, you know, something elicit or it's some quick dopamine hit. You know what, whatever the case, like God says, I offer you living water. Like, I'll give that to you. But I also offer you a pace that sustains this so that you can keep coming back to the well of living water. Like you don't have to get to the place where you're so parched that you're making really dumb decisions. So you know that idea of, come away with me, I'll teach you how to, how to take a real rest. And then he says, Walk with me and work with me. Like, just like your daughter. Work with me. Is she, how is she working with you? Well, she sit. She's apprenticing. Right? She's learning. My dad's not too busy to not sit on his lap. Like the fence isn't the most important.
We are. Wow, that's beautiful. And then, and then the, the beautiful. The way Eugene Peterson paraphrases it, learn the unforced rhythms of grace.
Wow. What if, like how many CEOs can be described as that man or woman? They are super grace filled.
[00:43:50] Speaker B: I mean, I knew a handful maybe, and I know a lot of people.
[00:43:53] Speaker A: Exactly. It's like, what if, what if that was a. You know, I, I know we, we deal in like character, culture, competency, all those kind of things.
What about, what if grace defined their character? Yeah. My, my boss, he, he does hold us accountable. But what a grace filled woman. Or what a grace filled man. So I think again, there's a, there's a withness to it. Um, we're just. I have, I have a, have an old school metronome on my desk. Um, if you're, you get to see it, but your listeners won't be able to see it. Old school. This is my mother in law's.
I, I'm always amazed on a, on a couple of things. And this has been such a great teaching tool. I asked people in Africa, what, what is this? Do you know what this is? And the one guy was like, looks like a pyramid. And I'm like, that works. That'll preach.
That'll work.
But I think when you, when you pop this thing out, I think we forget how much agency we have over our lives.
We feel as though we're swept up into something or we're, you know, oh my gosh, there's no way I can set, I can set the, the, the, the tempo on this thing anytime I want. And there are seasons where it's a little bit quick and it's like, but it's not sustainable. I can't stay in that. There's seasons of harvest where it's like, it's busy, but there are also seasons of planting where it's maybe a little bit slower, a little bit more methodical. And then there are times where I can actually just lodge the thing up in the tab and it's off.
[00:45:15] Speaker B: Right. For sure.
[00:45:15] Speaker A: What?
[00:45:16] Speaker B: It's so interesting because I've had conversations with a couple of leaders recently where I've had to say, you know, yes is a choice.
It is. And no is Also a choice. Right.
So if you get to exercise the choice, you could stop saying yes all the time. Right.
And your point? Like, I. I say that as someone who almost always starts with yes, except in my house. Right.
Which is a whole different issue.
[00:45:45] Speaker A: You know what I would say to that, because I've seen it in my own life. And this. This isn't you, but this is me. Let's talk about me.
I say yes quite a bit out of pride, period.
[00:45:56] Speaker B: Yeah, probably same.
[00:45:59] Speaker A: I think rest takes a tremendous amount of humility.
Like, think about the humility it takes for you to fall asleep and just be asleep. Like, that's. That's one of those humble points. But yet scripture tells you that God literally sings over you. He rejoices over you. And I always have this beautiful picture of the Lord singing over me even as I sleep. Am I doing anything? No, I'm sleeping. I'm not producing anything. I'm not waxing eloquence or scaling anything up. I'm asleep. And God rejoices over me even in that moment. And it's like, I feel in our culture, if we could get our leaders to somehow slow down there, it's almost like there needs to be somebody waving the flag and going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We've. We've seen what happens when we don't slow down, and we always think we're immune. But I think if we could have the humility to slow down just a bit, I think we would see kingdom expansion in ways that we never imagined. Because I think in that humility, we build trust that this is something that maybe the Lord's doing that I'm partnering alongside of. And he can do exceedingly, abundantly more than I could ever ask or imagine.
Or I could just put my nose to the grindstone and get the results that only I can get.
[00:47:14] Speaker B: Yeah, and do 5% of it. Totally.
[00:47:16] Speaker A: Exactly. I mean, how do you. How do you. You know, it's like I used to read the. The Ten Commandments and. And gloss over that one. That's like, honor the Sabbath, you know, you're like, oh, that's so legalistic. That's. That was for. Back then.
I often ask people, how's that working in. In your life? Like, does your soul leap at the thought of. Of a day off? Or does it feel like a burden? Because it's actually a gift. It's a gift. And I think when in humility, when I receive it and I go, oh, my gosh, I need this gift, it starts to transform the Other six days of the week. Like I think so.
[00:47:52] Speaker B: Interesting. So I used to work seven days a week, right.
To your point. Like, I, I felt like it was just what had to be done and, and totally a pride thing of like, all right, I'm just going to keep powering through this. Right. And, and then I, I listened to some other folks. My good friend Doug Smith has a, a PODC podcast on leadership. And he's done some, some study and some research on this and shared with, with some, you know, some other authors about it. And I, so I started saying, well, wait a minute, I'm gonna, I'm gonna work six days a week, right. And, and then I'm gonna have this seventh day where I just rest.
Only in like the last 100 days, 120 days, something like that. That in itself has been an incredibly impactful change. And now I'm to the point where I'm like, I'm gonna do everything I can to not work that six day too. Right.
And it's like you start to like rewire your brain and your heart and your body and it's like, oh, I can actually enjoy doing things on, on the weekend, if you will. Or whatever day it is that you take off and not have it feel like for, for years and years. I would say I can't take a vacation because it gnaws at me that.
[00:49:01] Speaker A: I'm not being productive, not making something. Yeah. And it's a work now I feel.
[00:49:07] Speaker B: Like I've leaped, I've leapt over that. Right.
But still have to remind myself it's okay to enjoy these, these rest periods.
[00:49:14] Speaker A: I was, I was walking years ago, this is 10, 15 years ago, walking amongst the vines in southern Italy, which is just a gorgeous place to be. But we had been there for, for quite a spell and I'd been off staff's handling everything. Everybody's. I, I've got no emails, my phone is died. It doesn't work like international. This is back in the days when born as easy. But I, I distinctively remember early morning walking through these grape vines up on a terraced hill and looking down at the valley. And again it was it the Lord, was it my own thoughts, whatever. I felt like the Lord said so. And anytime I feel like God says so, it's typically something that he's been trying to talk to me about. But I'm going a mile a minute. I'm like, I'm working for you, Jesus. I can't talk to you. Good grief.
So are you okay just being my son and Andrew, I, I bald.
Because the answer was no, I'm not. I'm not okay. Just being your son.
But I, I'd love to learn to be.
[00:50:17] Speaker B: Yeah. That's really.
[00:50:19] Speaker A: I'm still learning that for sure.
I want to see that in every leader. Okay. A son just being a daughter.
[00:50:26] Speaker B: Right.
[00:50:26] Speaker A: Worth and value. Now go do in that name with the one that's affirming you and calling you son and daughter. Yeah.
[00:50:34] Speaker B: I, I think that we would transform the world if we, if we could figure that out. Right.
[00:50:38] Speaker A: That is, I'm telling you, man, that is why I love doing what we do.
[00:50:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:50:42] Speaker A: I believe there are great kingdom causes and there are so many passionate purposes. But, but behind every one of those is a person, is a human being. And if we can somehow in some way, whether it's through a catalytic moment at one of our Oasis REST locations, whether it's through speaking or engagement or just being aware of that, there's a better rhythm and there's a better way to live.
I think we could see the kingdom of God expand in ways that we never imagined. And it's like we can see the kingdom expand by slowing down. Yes. Yes. That is a sacred contradiction as it comes and is probably as biblical as it comes as well.
[00:51:19] Speaker B: I think you're right.
[00:51:20] Speaker A: Slow down.
[00:51:21] Speaker B: And that's where we're going to end this conversation. Man, this has been fantastic. Thank you for walking us through your acronym and how it works out in people's lives.
How do people reach you if they want to learn more, want to maybe come to one of your locations or get the help that you guys offer?
[00:51:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Oasisrest.org is our website. You can find me on LinkedIn, Nathan LaGrange, or you can always email me nathan.lagrange oasisrest.org Easy ways to connect. There's even on our website, there's a spot where you can sign up to just get some resources. Like, we just want to give you stuff like, you know, here's a, here's a couple of books or, you know, just some links to some different things. So, yeah. Oasisrest.org awesome, brother.
[00:52:04] Speaker B: Thank you so much for doing this. Really appreciate it. It's great to chat with you today.
Have you read my Amazon number one bestselling book, 101 Biggest Mistakes Nonprofits make and how you can avoid them yet it's the book that I wrote with expertise from over 20 nonprofit leaders and their 300 years of combined experience.
You can download it for free today. Just visit andrew olson.net and go to the free resources tab on my.
[00:52:32] Speaker A: Thank.
[00:52:32] Speaker B: You so much for joining us for this episode of the Rainmaker Fundraising podcast. I have two favors to ask before I let you go. First, if you enjoyed this episode, please rate us and review us on whatever podcast platform you use to listen to this show. It'll help us reach more people with the tips and insights that you find most valuable. My second favor is a little bit of a favor to ask, but also a little bit of a gift to you. I write a daily substack newsletter called the Leadership Growth Newsletter. It's free to you, and I write it to help people lead more effectively and in both life and at work. I'd love for you to click the link in the show notes and subscribe to that newsletter as well. Until next time, friends. I hope you make it a great day.
