[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:02] Speaker B: Welcome to the Rainmaker fundraising podcast where we bring you tips and insights to help you raise more money for your organization and lead more effectively. I'm your host, Andrew Olson.
[00:00:12] Speaker C: Hey everybody, welcome to the show. This is Andrew Olson. I'm here with my really good friend, partner in crime, long term client friend advocate, Beth Fisher. Beth, welcome to the show.
[00:00:25] Speaker A: Hi. Thanks for having me.
[00:00:26] Speaker C: Thanks for being here. And so for our listeners, Beth is the CEO and founder of Fisher Strategic. She has been a consultant, she's worked inside the nonprofit sector. She's also the chair of the intrapreneurial program at Convene, where I actually am part of her Convene mentoring and coaching group.
And she's been a great partner and advocate for quite a long time now. And we're going to talk today about failure and what we can best. Before I get into our questions, take another minute or so and tell our listeners a little bit more about you.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: Yeah. So the first 25 years of my career, I was actually in sales, outside sales, and I would go to organizations around the country, primarily, sometimes in Europe, and automate business processes. So I'm very strategic in terms of how are you doing things today and where do you want to go and what that looks like organizationally from tools and people, etc. So I love that. I transitioned, as you mentioned, into the nonprofit space where I worked at a male charter ministry. So I was the chief advancement officer for about three and a half years. Now I do strategy for an organization, primarily marketing, but super interesting. Our largest client is the Templeton Religion Trust. So I get to work with PhD researchers around the globe who are doing intersect research at the intersection of science and religion. And they said to me, would you like to come on staff? And I thought, well, marketing, at this point in my career, no. But as soon as I heard, I get to like dispel the conflict narratives. I'm like, sign me up. Anything where there's conflict on either side. And you're trying to say maybe there's a different way to approach this. I'm all about that.
[00:01:54] Speaker C: Awesome. So, so let's get into this conversation. You have, I've been talking to leaders across the the sector really about what it means to fail and, you know, what we learn from it, how we recover from it, how we encourage people to still attempt things when, when failure is a risk. And so I just, I want to just talk a little bit about that today, I guess. First, let's start with this.
When I say the word failure, what's.
[00:02:23] Speaker A: The first Thing that comes, not something not turning out the way I had envisioned it in my mind.
[00:02:28] Speaker C: And so if we use that as the construct, I would love to hear your thinking.
This conversation will mostly be heard by C suite executives in the nonprofit sector and fundraisers at many different. And so having been a fundraiser and a C suite executive in the nonprofit space, you know what some of those risks of failing in our day to day jobs are, right? So there's the potential that program won't be delivered, that people in need won't receive what they need. And then there's also sort of the like personal challenges of I missed the mark and what could happen. Give give us a little bit of context for how you think about the risk of failure and how you balance that with still knowing that you need to move forward and do things differently in order to be effective for the future.
[00:03:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that you phrase the question this way because going to answer it with saying, well, it's probably not what everybody expects me to say, which possibly might be why you invited me here.
I don't mean this to sound trite, but I don't start from the lens of risk. I don't think about risk, okay. For me, I think about doing because the risk is assumed. For me it's a life is risky. It's risky to show up every day. It's risky to say, yes, I'll take this job, yes, I'll do this thing, I have no idea what I'm doing, yes, I will walk into a room filled with 18 people that are depending on me as their leader and et cetera. So the risk is assumed. I don't think about it, it's just there. Now that might be a big blind spot, but for me it's understanding that that's there that motivates me. If something is essentially hard or risky or whatever those words may be, then sign me up and let's figure out a way collectively to get to the goal. So I think about it in terms of let's just be strategic about it. Let's understand that there's always risk associated because anything worth doing has it. And then you just figure out a way to continue to, to push through knowing that there are going to be peaks and valleys. It's just the way that it works.
[00:04:23] Speaker C: So I think it's the first time I've asked that question to someone and they said I don't think about risk.
And that might be telling about our industry. Right.
I think at the same time, and you didn't exactly say this But I think, I think you would agree with it. There's risk of doing and there's also risk of not right.
[00:04:38] Speaker A: Oh yeah, yeah.
[00:04:39] Speaker C: How do you, how would you help an executive think through that? Like what's the decision making process that someone should use when they go wow, this is a really big decision. I'm afraid, rightly so or not, of going in this direction. But there's also risk over here and there's potentially fear of going in the other direction. How do you think through that to come to a decision that you can might not be right, but it's a decision you can live with and defend?
[00:05:04] Speaker A: Yeah, right. Actually I was at a conversation this morning about that and someone was saying it was a fundraising conversation. I do some fundraising consulting on the side and the question was realizing we're not going to hit our 150k this month. That was our target.
Relationships have not yet had enough time to, to be cultivated. What do we do? What, what has to go. Are we getting rid of people? Are we is at the expense of future planning and R and D for the organization? It's a cart horse discussion. So for me I kind of, I listened and I chimed in and I basically said it has to be and both. So I'm always under, I operate under the parallel sort of track and if something has to give, I always look at it from a big picture worst case scenario. My question is what is the worst thing that's going to happen if, if we don't do this, if we don't raise these funds, if we don't make these changes, what will most likely that outcome be and how tolerable is it? What are the implications? I look at it from worst case.
[00:05:59] Speaker C: Scenario and so, and then is it a decision, Is the decision sort of methodology there, the worst case scenario risk is worth it or, or is it that at that point you just begin managing the risk different?
[00:06:11] Speaker A: Yes, yes, both.
And, and I know what you're getting at. So for me it's is the risk worth it? That is when I start to parse out who's most implicated, who are the. Is it. And that's the hardest thing as a leader, especially in the nonprofit and it's a Christian ministry. Even more so when I do consulting in that realm too. It's one of the most difficult things I think Christian business owners and leaders have to face is look, people's lives depend on this, right? So not only the mission and the people that are on the streets who need to be fed, et cetera, but Our employees and their families and their people that need to be fed. So, you know, I would question somebody who, who doesn't stay awakened at night by that thought process as a leader.
So I look at it from the WHO and for how long and are there other alternatives? If it's a resource situation, can we place them elsewhere? Can we make the net risky effect less, less heavy for them, less of a burden? But if it is a short term sort of risk, or I just go, no, that's okay.
We can make this hard decision now for the greater good or for the long term impact.
[00:07:16] Speaker C: So I know you well enough to know that you've probably taken some big risks in every role you've been in, right? And you know it's, to use a sports analogy, right? You take enough at bats, you're going to hit some home runs, but you're also going to strike out.
How, how do you recover from some of those big strikeouts? Particularly, I'm thinking, you know, for a lot of people it's, it's not just I made a mistake and I failed here, but it's, I failed and it was public. Right. And so how do, how do I process through that? What, what's your guidance?
[00:07:49] Speaker A: Yeah, surround yourself with people. The people in your, in, in your corner who always have your back. And that's most, that's one of the most interesting things to me is people will show up for you in times of ease, when you look good, when things are operating smoothly, and that is when you know when they're not operating smoothly and when a risk has occurred and failed, failure has occurred because of that risk and so forth. And it's public, people walk. Right? And that is how you know going forward, who's always got your back in your corner. So for me it's just to surround yourself with people who say, hey, this isn't the, you were not. This, this is, this is a one time situation that occurred because of xyz. What are we learning from this? What are we going to do differently? How can I help?
What do you see now in retrospect? What needs to be cleaned up and what is mine to do as your friend, your counterpart, your co leader in this effort? Yeah, I just, I don't isolate. I surround myself with people who have been there because we're not the first people to fail, nor will we be the last people for sure.
[00:08:45] Speaker C: So I suspect that some of the folks listening to this will, will be sitting here saying, how do I find? What do you say?
[00:08:51] Speaker A: I would say they've Always been there. And I would look internally to say maybe who can I look at different Sometimes, especially as leaders. Right. We become so isolated and we think it's all on our shoulders. And yes, we've got other C suite leaders around us and people on ELTs and so forth and the board. Boards, plural. But how are we interacting with them? And what is ours to say? Look, I know you've been here all along. I really need to reach out to you in this capacity. And are you my person? I'm very direct, as you know. And so I just ask because I think a lot of the onus is on us. It's perhaps perception. Maybe people think, I don't have any of those people. Yes, you do. Yes, you do. There's no way you can have gotten to the point you are without people surrounding you.
[00:09:31] Speaker C: That's, that's really good input. What, what about. So that's. If we're talking to C suite leaders or executives, that makes total sense. What about the brand new employee who, who's like, oh my gosh, if I mess this up, I could get fired? Like, what do you say to that person?
[00:09:45] Speaker A: That's an easier one for me to find your people. Just, just look at people who have gone down the path ahead of you.
The organization where I work, my day job, there are amazing young women leaders up and coming, and I'm, you know, five feet away and I don't interfere, I don't intercede, but I'm always there and they kind of know that. They're like, I don't know what to do in this situation. Just find somebody who you, you can watch every day and you see their work ethic and who has gone the journey ahead of you. Because I don't know any leader who doesn't want to give back. Good leaders always want to give back for sure.
[00:10:16] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great point. So I want to camp on this issue for a second because you brought up this, this issue of like, some of the younger women on staff, and you've, you and I have worked together in a number of different capacities. You've coached a number of my team members at a couple different companies. How.
I think one of the challenges I see is there's often just a fear of like even asking for that kind of engagement and that kind of support. Play out that conversation a little bit. How does, how does that young, maybe female or male, you know, employee who's, who's really looking for that kind of coaching and guidance and support, but doesn't Know how to ask, what's the right thing to say to make the case that you, you deserve that kind of investment?
[00:11:01] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. And I again operate from the auspice of just be authentic and don't try and sugarcoat. You kind of get, don't circle the drain. And the question, you know, it's just, hey, I'm really, I'm really struggling with something that I bet you've been through when you were at this point in your career. Can I take you to coffee? Can you have a lunch with me? I'd really like to run by a couple of things that have just been keeping me awake at night. That's some good language because all of us are kept awake at night usually. Right.
And then just say, I just, I know your time is valuable and I also really believe that you're a person that would have some good insight for me. Do you have time to share with me? Just ask that and then just sit down and be as honest and open as you can. There.
Fear. Fear is what holds people back.
People are absolutely afraid of what will they think of me? Well, you know what, leaders think the same thing. People 30 years in their career, we often think that if I do X, if I say this, will I look weak? Will somebody think of me differently? And I always go back to, you know, who you are, be who you are, just do it. Because I know I'm not everybody's cup of tea. Great, don't drink the tea. Find something else to drink. Right. Take it or leave it. But, but that's why we're here. And so there I, I also know that there are people that we both have helped will continue to help. And the people that aren't ours to help, somebody else will help them.
[00:12:13] Speaker C: Yeah, so let's, let's flip that for a second because one of the challenges that I see quite often is organizations that say, you know, I want our people to grow, I want people to develop. I want to get rid of this fear based culture and I, I want to make it so that, you know, if someone does fail, they can recover quickly and get back on track. But then those are often the same organizations that say, I don't think it's worth investing in talent development and coaching and guidance like that. Speak to that.
[00:12:40] Speaker A: Well, that's talking in both sides of your mouth now, isn't it? That's as direct as I can speak about it. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You cannot say that on one side and then turn around and not invest in people. It just. It does not work. And it instills a culture of fear. It actually perpetuates the problem that you're saying that you want to get rid of. And so people begin to feel undervalued, devalued, that there's a sense of mistrust, that I'm not worth it. They don't see me. They don't see all the hard work that I do. And so it is a matter of cultivating relationships and saying, how do you best learn? What right now do you feel like is missing in your role? Because we all have things that are missing. And don't make it seem like to somebody that you ask that of. That you're looking to try and sort of catch them. Instead, you're really coming alongside them to say, I'm asking this question because I'm trying to help you get to the next level. I know you have internal struggles. We all do. I have things that are missing. What's missing for you that maybe we can figure out how to plug that in and then continue on so your growth and your transformation can continue in this career path or somewhere else. Right. Good leaders bring up the next generation of leaders. We should never be people in positions to hold somebody back or to.
Drama is another one for me. When there's a whole culture of drama and fear, I don't have time for it because it's just not helpful. When you say something, do the thing, be the person that you say. Your words and actions must align.
[00:13:59] Speaker C: Absolutely. All right, I want to get into a slightly nuanced topic here. So we all, I think, can think about failings we've had in business and how we've dealt with them. One of the things that I would love your. Your input on is how do you. How do you show up well, in the office when maybe there are things failing outside of the office in your life? And how do you. How do you manage what. What does that.
[00:14:21] Speaker A: Yeah. As hard as it is, I think the school of thought, at least years ago was you compartmentalize. You know, personal lives are personal lives and work is work, and so leave it at home. Again, that's the dumbest thing I could ever imagine happening. It. It. It's not good for anybody, especially yourself, as you're processing a time of grief or stress or struggle outside of the office. And so the thing to remember is we're all in this together, all of us. Life, humanity. So while we are in different phases of life, in careers and in marriages, in transitions and empty nesting and pick a thing, pick a life transition. It's a season of life that we all go through at some point or another. And so I would say you show up and you are honest. Honesty is. It trumps all things and you don't have to actually share more than you want to share. But you can say, you know what, I'm dealing with some things at home right now, guys. I just might need a little extra grace this week and people go, okay, but I think it's wise to say that among people that are presumably trusted people. And again, I will let us all be reminded that we know who those people are.
And if you don't want to tell somebody, don't tell somebody. But there are people in the office and in your spaces that you can tell who will, when you're not in that room, defend you if they are good people too.
[00:15:34] Speaker B: Let's take a quick break from today's conversation and talk about your leadership. Do you ever feel stuck or like you just don't know whether you're leading well or not? I know that's something that I've felt at times during my 25 year career leading people in teams, and many of the leaders that I've coached and advised over the years have also felt that way. That's exactly why I created the 90 Day Leaders Journey email course. This course is jam packed with value to help you become a more effective and competent leader and to give you the confidence to step into any leadership opportunity. The course is broken into three key aspects of leadership which are your leadership character, your leadership culture, and your leadership competence. Over the course of 90 days, you'll receive one email every day. Each email is brief, to the point, and focused on a single specific topic to help you level up your leadership game. This is the same exact leadership training that I deliver personally to the leaders that I coach and mentor every day in business and nonprofits all across North America. Only instead of paying thousands of dollars or even tens of thousands of dollars, you can get access to this content at a significantly reduced cost. You can access this Game Changing Leadership email course
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[00:16:47] Speaker C: So a follow up on that. I think we've both been in this space long enough to know that there are some organizations that culturally are really uncomfortable with that kind of where they're either really rules based or they're just not comfortable with really any kind of emotional conversation. What's your counsel to someone that's working in an environment like that? How do you how do you sort of bring that to the forefront in a way that doesn't.
Doesn't either immediately get dismissed or get you put into a category of like, well, that's a problem employee that we're going to have to, like, usher out the first opportunity we get. How do we create that safety?
[00:17:22] Speaker A: Yeah, well, creating it and reading the room. Right. So if you were the person that's going through that and you're working in an environment like that, I would say don't try and force it. You can be your own internal advocate first. And. And let me just also say that it can be. And both. You can be going through a lot of despair or grief and also hold joy at the same time again. And both. It can be both things. And so you can process and you can also be joyful. I have a job. I have this, like, you know, gratitude at the same time as you're processing that on your own behalf, being your loudest advocate, you can kind of just watch people and this perhaps toxic environment that doesn't allow critical conversations to happen without repercussions. And just try and figure out a way that you can maybe be the first person to speak up and, and change that. And it's going to be a time, you know, over time takes not on Monday, and then by Friday, the whole place is fixed. But guaranteed there are other people that are thinking the same thing that you are and struggling in the same capacity you are. Somebody's got to be a leader. Right. Somebody has to be a trailblazer. And so I always look at. Read the room, use your brain, understand human dynamics, understand who's trustworthy in those moments. And then just little by little by little, continue to tear down that wall of an organization that needs those walls to be torn down.
[00:18:35] Speaker C: That's good stuff. All right, let's flip that a little bit. Talk to the leaders right now who are listening to this. What can they be doing? What kind of language can they even be using in the workplace to facilitate that kind of conversation and to let people know this is a safe place where you can be who you are and we can have a productive dialogue.
[00:18:56] Speaker A: Yeah. I would say first, before the language can even be spoken, they need to take a hard look as leaders to say, action wise. If I use these words, will people even believe these words?
[00:19:06] Speaker C: Good point.
[00:19:07] Speaker A: That's the first thing. And so I would say start to implement actions within the organization that will then open up doors for those conversations. So that when a leader would say things like, hey, I know in the past we used to operate like this. Those days are because I know it's not helping this community, it's not helping our team, it's not helping our culture. So you may have noticed that in the past it looked like X, Y, Z. However, today we're doing things differently. So that's one indication for you and all of us, hopefully that going forward these are safe spaces because we're not non holistic people. You go home, you have things, you come to work, you have things. So this is where we spend the majority of our time. We're going to be in this mission, in this space together. And it is a trustworthy space. And for anybody that doesn't operate like that, I have no qualms about getting rid of people like that.
[00:19:51] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. They got so kind of. On a related note, when you are coaching someone who is failing in one aspect of their work or another, what's that conversation like? I feel like there are a lot of leaders who have been taught how to have a very like pro forma performance evaluation, which is either you're hitting the mark or you're not and you're going to be put on a performance improvement plan or you're going to be ushered out or you're successful. But like there's a lot of gray area in between those things. What have you found most effective in having those?
[00:20:21] Speaker A: Yeah, the gray area, because a PIP is nothing more than fear. It's, it's, it's like parenting. Leadership is like parenting. So imagine if you have children, let's hope that you love, right? And you're like, you do this or else, what's a child going to do? How are they going to learn to think for themselves? And they're only going to ever learn to understand what performance based acceptance looks. And that is, that is absolute recipe for failure and relational failure and all of the things. So it looks a lot grayer than that. And it looks something like. And I've done this. Hey, I know you have such an amazing heart. I'm so happy you're here at this organization and I know you care about the people around, around you, around all of us. Have you ever stopped to think that when you do this, that this person or how that might make this person feel? It's, it's not landing the way that I know you intend. What do you think about that? And then just sit back and let them in. I want to hear from my employees and people on a team the way that they think they're being perceived. It usually is not accurate. It's usually not reality. It's. It's what they mean. Right? I mean, you know, where the roads are paved. Right. But it's like it often it's, it's the tone in which people speak. It's a way in which they show up. And you know, you know me, I'm a big Enneagram fan. Not everybody rolls the same way. So if you are an 8 on the enneagram, and I am, you can't, is there shocker.
You can't, you cannot roll in where somebody is a process thinker and is just a little bit operates differently and think that that's going to be an easy conversation. Somebody came in my office and he was on my team and he said, I'm worried about your pace.
And I, and I smiled and I said, just quick clarifying question. Are you worried for you or for me? I've been going this fast for 50 years. Right. You know, but I do appreciate that and I think it doesn't need to be again this dualistic, I'm right, you're wrong. You know, two of anything is never enough. There's always a third way.
[00:22:10] Speaker C: So following up on that, when there's a situation where what you see and maybe what others see in how an employee is showing up, but how they see how they're showing up are vastly different. Like, how do you close that gap?
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[00:22:44] Speaker A: I like to write things down and say, do you think it would make sense to work towards this sort of incremental change? Let's see this. Let's try it out as sort of like a test environment, if you will. You know, this is not anything, we're not going to call it anything other than you and I know this is going to happen and let's see how it's received. We're not going to know until we try. It's like an a B testing situation. Right. And so, and when you do that, it's like it becomes a little challenging, know to the person because I truly do think, Andrew, that people know and they just maybe don't know how to correct it. They've been doing it for so long and nobody's taking the time to care enough about them, to kind of point it out. Because it's a hard conversation, right, to say to somebody. You're like a bull in a china shop up in here. Back it up. You know, because you don't want to offend the person but you also want them to know it because it's never going to get better unless somebody takes the time to point it out. You have to do it in a very loving way, in a non threatening way. Not if you don't change, then you're fired kind of way. That's all dumb. That's useless. It's not going to change anybody.
[00:23:44] Speaker C: Yeah. I also find it like oftentimes there's, there's sort of this like built up Persona for people where they say, well no, I'm like, this is me, right. I'm this way. And there's, there's like this, maybe pride's not the right word. I can't think of a better word. There's very much like, there's a high level of confidence in how they think they're showing up. And when you say, well, no, no one else sees you this way, it's not just like deflating but actually like it, it attacks the core of who they think they are. Right. And I feel like that has to be a really delicately balanced conversation always.
[00:24:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Because it's an identity situation and.
But there is some, you said it right there. Rightly. There's some pride and ego and defense mechanisms that happen and why should I have to change? They should change. Right. This is who I am. Deal with it, take it or leave it. And I always go back to leadership. I always say, look, I know that you are a leader. You have leadership qualities. One of the hardest things to learn about leadership is that you have to make it about others.
So if we're making it about others, if we can agree that you want to be a leader and leadership is about leading others, we have to take in their viewpoints into complete consideration or else you're never really going to rise to the level of leadership that I know that you want.
[00:24:55] Speaker C: That's. So that might actually be the statement of the conversation which is that leadership is about others and if you don't take their viewpoints into consideration, you're not actually leading. I feel like there are so many, many people in this world who, who believe that leadership is simply about saying, well, I told them what to do.
[00:25:11] Speaker A: And they, I'm sorry, I'm laughing because I, I perhaps I used to think that and I think it, I used to, that in my 20s and 30s, when I thought I had something to prove because people would not see me as a leader unless I came in there and showed them that I was a leader. That's not true leadership. It just isn't. And you know, we can talk and we can say it and. But I think honestly it's kind of the school of hard knocks. You have to go through it. Which is why I know you and I both care so much about leading next generations and coaching and helping and all these things. Because we want people to learn from what we know to be true so they can actually get there more quickly and less painfully than we did.
[00:25:48] Speaker C: So let's, let's change this conversation a little bit. I want to talk about leading transformational change because I know you've done a lot of that. We've done some of that together.
And I think that's an area where, where there's a lot more fear. People think, well, this is such a big deal that if I screw this up, like it could be a career. Do you think the same way about significant change efforts like this as you do anything else where you just don't consider the risk? Or are there different calculations that have to happen when you're talking about really kind of upending the status quo and going in it completely?
[00:26:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I think the risk is. No, I think about. I just don't call it risk. Basically.
I think of it more as clarity. For me, any kind of change management requires unwavering, continual clarity. And so again, it's where those words and actions align. And so you can lay out the big vision and you can say what you're going to say and try and quell people's immediate fears because that's what they're going to have. But then as time goes on, because again, change management isn't an overnight process. Then every single small win along the way, when you execute a small win and the win is that you did what you said you're going to do and the implications are what you said they were going to be. Then people start to regain trust that they've lost for no reason other than fear. But, but they have a sense of, okay, he or she is saying this and I'm seeing this, the next thing happens, they said this was going to happen. I see this is happening.
It's just, it's managing along the way. And the risk is only insofar as you are not doing a good job leading that change management because you haven't been clear.
[00:27:20] Speaker C: All right, we've got just A few minutes left I want to get from you. And this is a bit of more of like a personal reflection. But in the areas where you've had sort of your biggest fails in life, what have you learned the most about yourself?
[00:27:36] Speaker A: That I already knew.
That I already knew before that failure happened, that it was most likely going to happen.
And I.
I love that you left me three minutes with the personal because you know it's gonna take forever.
But I talked myself out of a lot of things because I am the eternal optimist. And so what makes me good in terms of changing organizations does not necessarily equate to changing people. Who knew. Right. Like personal. So. So I used to think the potential as an example, that's unfair. That's unfair to do to people. So what it has taught me is that when I know, I know and to trust myself. It has also taught me that when I don't listen to myself and failure at some point in time down the road happens, that I can get through it, that I pick up the pieces, that I don't quit, that I'm not the first person who has suffered. And that while it's going to be tough, both things can be true. I can hold space for both grief and sadness and joy and moving forward. That's life.
[00:28:39] Speaker C: All right, follow up to that. That's that conversation on grief. Right. And I'm sure the answer is, it depends. But beyond that, like, there are people listening to this who are going to say, I'm in the middle of how long is too long to sit and when do they need to pick up and start moving forward.
[00:28:55] Speaker A: Yeah, you're right. It does depend. But I would say sooner rather than later.
And I say that again, going back to. It's a process.
There are times right now, I mean, I've experienced grief that started years ago and came to a culmination four or five months ago. And there are days that I still feel grief, but I feel it less and less and less every day that goes by. And so if you know this is a new situation, I mean, it's gonna really feel the hardest in the. In the initial stages. But every day you have those small wins, like change. Right. Change management. You're managing change. Grief often happens because of change. Something's different in your life than it used to be. And so, um, yeah, it just. Every single day. But don't. Don't wallow in it forever, because you've got a big life on the other side of this. And so for people who have been in grief over A year. I mean, grief that is just stops you in your tracks. That's different than grief that once in a while sort of rears up. Allow that. Feel those feelings. That's fine. That's great. Acknowledge it. And then acknowledge all the things that you've come through and you've gotten through, because that's the momentum you need to keep going forward.
[00:29:56] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. You said wallow, and I. This is something I tell my teenagers. Right. We can't choose whether or not we experience pain, but we can certainly choose whether or not we sit. Right. And so experience it and. And learn from it. But then to your point, start moving forward. And I find. I don't know if this is the same for you or not, but I find that oftentimes looking for opportunities to serve others is the. The kind of catalyst for me to get out of that. Right.
[00:30:24] Speaker A: Always. Always. Yes. Because it takes you. It takes you away from self and the. Oh, I'm so. Because if. If you are, then feeling like you're useful to another human. It's. It's bidirectional joy. It really is. Yeah. Fastest way. You're right.
[00:30:38] Speaker C: Yeah. Beth, thank you for being with us today. Thanks for sharing from your heart. How do people reach you if they want to get in touch?
[00:30:44] Speaker A: Yeah. The easiest way is Beth. BethFisher.com direct email or BethFisher.com to my website.
[00:30:50] Speaker C: Very. All right, thanks again.
[00:30:53] Speaker B: Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the Rainmaker fundraising podcast. I have two favors to ask before I let you go. First, if you enjoyed this episode, please rate us and review us on whatever podcast platform you use to listen to this show. It'll help us reach more people with the tips and insights that you find most valuable. My second favor is a little bit of a favor to ask, but also a little bit of a gift to you. I write a daily substack newsletter called the Leadership Growth Newsletter. It's free to you, and I write it to help people lead more effectively and in both life and at work. I'd love for you to click the link in the show notes and subscribe to that newsletter as well. Until next time, friends. I hope you make it a great day.
