Major Gift Fundraising as a Trade

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:03] Speaker B: Welcome to the Rainmaker fundraising podcast where we bring you tips and insights to help you raise more money for your organization and lead more effectively. I'm your host, Andrew Olson. [00:00:14] Speaker C: Hey everybody, welcome to the show. This is Andrew Olson. I'm here today with Jason Zwang. Jason, welcome to the show. [00:00:20] Speaker A: Thanks for having me, Andrew. Excited to be here. [00:00:23] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm excited for this conversation. So Jason is the founder of the Giving Group, which is a full service major gift consultant and coaching firm that serves organizations all over the globe. He's also the managing partner at Altruistity, which is a philanthropic consulting firm that primarily serves the Jewish nonprofit community. But beyond being a tenured, experienced consultant, Jason spent the first half of his career actually doing the work building and growing major gift fundraising operations at places like Oglethorpe University and Habitat for Humanity International. So he is not just a consultant, he's actually done it and has a wealth of knowledge and experience to share. We're going to talk today about sort of fundraising as trade and we'll probably get into some other topics. Before we do that, Jason, take a few minutes and just tell us a little bit more about your firm, your work and your passion for this. [00:01:21] Speaker A: Absolutely. So, you know, it's interesting. It actually kind of started with my father. You know, my dad was somebody who took a Jewish federation where he was an executive director for 20 some odd years from being above a liquor store with like three employees and ended up building this huge facility that was adorned in Jerusalem stone and had lots of employees in a leading daycare in the tri state area and did these great things. And he really did it by not listening to the rules. He did it by listening to his donors. [00:01:49] Speaker D: Right. [00:01:49] Speaker A: So not how the organization needed to operate, but how his donors needed to hear things. And that inspired me. And then eventually I moved into my own major gifts work. It's actually the only job I ever had. So I didn't fall into it. I intentionally went into major gifts and relationship building straight out of college. And so I've been doing that for 20 years. I lead teams, I help build teams, I help build boards and grow and crystallize the philanthropic priorities of institutions. And then how we put them together and choose who we talk to is sort of my, my specialty. So we look at who are, we ask what are we asking for money for and who are we asking for money from? And those are the two things that we really crystallize and bring together and then we execute on strategy. And so I've been doing that now for several Years you brought up that I did about half my career in this. It's actually I was sort of burning the candle at both ends. I was doing my 20 years in the field at high rigor with these larger organizations. And while I was doing that, I was also consulting and building my relationship because I wanted to have maximum impact in this environment. [00:02:55] Speaker D: Right. [00:02:55] Speaker A: I really wanted to be able to serve missions more broadly that would improve the world. And that's my personal mission. So. So that's how I ended up getting started in this. So, yeah, I've been doing frontline fundraising for, for about 20 years. You know, the normal metrics that people are used to, and alongside that, with budgets, that afforded me the ability to see how things really needed to work. And I think this is against a backdrop of an evolving major gifts area that really didn't start being built out as a science alongside the art until about 2009. So if you think about it, we only have about a 15, you know, 15 to maybe 20 year old major gifts, science and art, balanced industry. And I think that that's why there's so much rigor available, so much discussion with consultants available. You know, really, it's a young industry in that way. And so we're all still trying to figure it out. And in that way, we need to be looking to our tradespeople, the ones who've really done it in the streets, to be able to say, what should I do when this donor tells me that? Or what does it mean when I hear this from that firm? Or how do I, you know, get out of this strange and interesting conversation where we seem to be stuck on this thing? How could I have avoided that, my negotiation. It comes down to tactics. [00:04:11] Speaker D: Right. [00:04:11] Speaker A: And discussion about that, not necessarily theoretical approach. So that's why I'm excited to talk with you is about the idea of major gifts as a trade. [00:04:21] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think it's a fascinating idea. When you first brought it up the last time we were, we were on a call together, it took me a couple of days to get it out of my head. [00:04:29] Speaker D: Right. [00:04:30] Speaker C: Because I think so many, you know, so often when we talk about this work, we talk about it as a career. [00:04:36] Speaker D: Right. [00:04:36] Speaker A: And it's. [00:04:37] Speaker C: And you, you said this, you know, you're one of the few who didn't accidentally arrive in this industry. [00:04:44] Speaker A: That's right. [00:04:45] Speaker D: Right. Yeah. [00:04:46] Speaker C: And I know that, you know, over the last, say, five or so years, there's really been an increase in the number, say, of, of university programming, you know, programs and degree paths around Nonprofit and around fundraising, things like that. So I think that that tide is changing. But if you were to go pull 100 charities right now, you would probably find 99 people in the development seat who didn't intend to be a fundraiser. [00:05:12] Speaker A: Right, sure. [00:05:13] Speaker C: Talk about this concept of fundraising as a trade versus as a career. What do you mean by that? And why is it an important distinction? [00:05:23] Speaker A: Yeah, good point. So I think that when we come into fundraising, you know, I think a lot of people look at it as, you know, I really care about this particular. Particular mission, and I want to be able to help, and I seem to be okay with conversation. And I've been able to either do business development or I helped on a board before, and so maybe I'll be good at this. And they sort of jump into it. And I think what happens, you know, it really takes about 10 to 15 years to really crystallize what you actually do in fundraising, to crack that code with donors. And it took. I remember the moment it changed for me, and I want to tell you that story. I was working for Habitat International, and. And I was out, and, you know, I was deployed around the US and at this point, I was out deployed in South Carolina, and I was working with a wonderful donor family that I had known for about 18 months. We had closed a couple increased annual gifts, which is great. And they, you know, they were growing their relationship with me, and we had lots of trust being built between us. We're talking about their family quite a bit. I was learning things that they wouldn't have necessarily shared with their friends. They probably wouldn't also share it with their family. So I had this really unique spot, and I remember I went out with them where they had provided funding anonymously for Habitat homes in the South Carolina community. And I'm sitting in their car with them because I decided to go with them to be involved in their philanthropy, even though it wasn't with, you know, our right. It was. It was Habitat, but it was a local gift. But I wanted to be involved in their experiences because that helped position me as somebody who was a resource to them, where I could both understand and help guide them. And what I did was I was in their car, and I'm sitting in the backseat, and I said to them, you know, you both have entrusted me with such amazing information that I've gotten to know, and it's meant so much to me. And I reflected back from a couple of the things that they had said even eight, nine, ten months ago, and I said, you know, these things are so important. I said, I believe that I have a responsibility because you've given me that information. Because you wouldn't have shared it with family, because you might not have shared this with your friends, but you shared it with me. And I have this amazing organization I work with. There are things that come across my desk that I feel like would be a perfect fit. And I know how much you care about changing the world. When these things come across my desk, would it be okay if I brought them to you? And you know what they said? We expect it. [00:07:43] Speaker D: Right. [00:07:44] Speaker A: And so what I did was that's the moment philanthropy really cracked for me. So our job in philanthropy is to help make partnerships. And in order to do that, we need to get lots of information from our donors about passion and interest, about families, about the reason for their decisions on things. [00:08:02] Speaker D: Right. [00:08:03] Speaker A: Trying to match information you learned earlier with information you learned later, demonstrating that you've been listening. And when you do that and you've truly listened to that creates trust. And when you have trust, it's the only way you can have influence. And so in order to influence, you have to have trust. In order to build trust, you have to listen. And in order to listen, you have to ask good questions. So that's really the trade is learning how to ask good questions and then learning how to reflect back. Because philanthropy is effectively an exercise in empathy. [00:08:36] Speaker D: Right. [00:08:36] Speaker A: How do we help a family support something they feel so deeply about and solve a problem in the world? How do we help them do that? Through our organization. Not. Our organization needs this. And let me figure out how you can help get to it. Right, Right over. [00:08:53] Speaker C: Let me craft the proposal just so much that it at least checks one box for you. [00:08:58] Speaker D: Right? Yeah. [00:08:58] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. [00:09:00] Speaker C: So, okay, I think that, first of all, it's a fantastic story, and it's a great sort of vision into who you are as a human being and the. The craft and the work that you've done. I'm conflicted because you and I both know that in 99 out of a hundred charities in this country, the conversation today is rush to the finish line to make budget fiscal year. How does a fundraiser who believes in what you just said balance that with the pressure of delivering this year? Because we know that either they're going to move on if they're not successful this year by their choice, or potentially by the choice of their employer. How do we square that? [00:09:52] Speaker A: Great question. Culture of philanthropy is a really hard nut to crack today. There are a lot of promoted opportunities on LinkedIn. And throughout social media and even more deeply with larger consulting firms that help and promise to provide these resources early. And the way that they do that is by balancing their annual campaign, their major gifts, all these different tools, and their verticals of resource development. So like anything else, you want to be able to balance these initiatives so that you can get the money that you need today to operate while you're also investing in the future potential exponential revenue. [00:10:31] Speaker D: Right? [00:10:31] Speaker A: And so the way that I would suggest doing that is, is you need to have a good relationship with your board of trustees and your leadership that may not be directly involved in fundraising. And you have to be able to measure leading indicators to get. So what I mean by that, this is, this is where metrics become really helpful, right? Metrics are, are really nothing more than, than guidelines of, of what it should look like. If you're doing the job and you're working really hard and you never looked at your metrics at the end of the year, you should be able to come out, look at those things and you would have measured right in the middle would have been perfect, right? That's the idea of metrics. But there's actually another purpose. And the purpose is to help show people who may not be directly involved in the art and science of fundraising that you're still making progress in educating them towards this. Because it's a marathon, so I can say. So at one point, for example, I, I had built and led a team at an institution where the board of trustees, you know, had a lack of trust about advancement because they had turned over these teams several times. And so I was able to go to them and say, here are the people we hired. And in their portfolio they have this many people in each portfolio, this many are in qualification, this many are in cultivation, this many are in solicitation, this many are in stewardship. And at this point, our officers are scattered amongst qualification and solicitation, and mostly in qualification and cultivation. And so I was able to show them what those numbers look like. And I said, when I come back here next quarter, I will show you that they will have advanced those relationships in a certain way. And I, and I also educate them more deeply on the nuances of, of these kinds of cultural parts of our major groups relationships. For example, solicitation isn't really solicitation, it's negotiation. Solicitation takes about three minutes, right? Negotiation is really what you're working towards. And the art of being a good major gifts officer is helping to set up that negotiation for months prior. And so, so you're really working to do that by educating people on culture of philanthropy, by working with subject matter experts and bringing them into your work, your leadership, bringing them in to meet your donors, and educating back on the process. That's how you help get the marathon needed, the bandwidth needed, the understanding necessary to allow you to do your job over time while managing your annual fund. Does that help make sense? [00:12:53] Speaker C: It makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I'm going to push it a little bit back to you though, because one of the things that I think the missing piece for a lot of leaders, right. I think fundraisers largely get it right. You know, there's a lot of banter in the sector on social media and stuff about, you know, the problems fundraisers have. And I think most fundraisers would say, no, I understand this, I just can't get my boss to, to give us the latitude. [00:13:20] Speaker A: Right, yeah. [00:13:21] Speaker C: So this next question, I think really is about boards and CEOs and largely the C suite organizations. There's a, there's a distinct difference between knowing it in your head and knowing it in your heart. And the latter is what drives the action. That's right, because there are so many CEOs who go, yeah, I mean, I get that, I see it on paper, but my gut is we should do this instead. [00:13:49] Speaker D: Right? [00:13:50] Speaker C: What is in your mind? Like, what's the thing? Or, or the couple of things that you've seen really crack this nut for leaders and take them from being sort of, you know, subjective, gut driven decision makers to being able to say, well, wait a minute, I actually do need to trust this data and I do need to let those metrics drive my decision making versus me looking at the metrics, throwing them aside and doing what I want. [00:14:20] Speaker A: Anyway, yeah, it's a really good question. And it's hard because the truth is you need, you do need time, right? And so in order to get that time, you not only have to have demonstrate to this leader that you have done good use of time before, so you've used that time well in the past. And you know, any time you go into a relationship with a new leader, you're diving into the unknown. I mean, and that's just a reality. So that leader needs to understand that this is the best of their options, right? This is all things considered, this is our best bet. And that's the reality of where you're starting, right? And they're not saying this is a surefire thing, right? And so, so we know that and we know that's true. And anybody who's been in leadership, when they make a new hire, knows this is, that this is all. As an educated guest, this is the best I can come up with. And I think this person is going to really be able to do it because of their nooks and crannies and our nooks and crannies, how they fit together. So that's the first thing is you're going to need that time. The next thing is, what I'd recommend is when you start relationships with new leaders, saying that we're going to have misunderstandings, we're going to have times when I'm doing things and you think it's taking too long. What I want to have happen is that we have a relationship where you give me the benefit of the doubt. I need you to come to me with your comments, your thoughts and questions, and I need you to ask, because what's going through my mind is a trait. [00:15:35] Speaker D: Right. [00:15:36] Speaker A: Like, I remember when I was serving tables, I knew the weight of the forks. I knew that if I looked at that table, I was like, this is how they're going to want me to talk to them. I knew how long that table was going to sit for because of the kinds of drinks they ordered. [00:15:48] Speaker D: Right. [00:15:49] Speaker A: It's a trade. And so I don't always communicate those things to my leadership. And so when there is a lack of understanding and a lack of data, please don't imply data as a result, but rather ask me what my plan is and I'll be happy to share because there's so many variables. So that's the first thing is, is really asking for that latitude. Now you'll probably. That'll. That'll get you probably depends when you start in the fiscal year. [00:16:10] Speaker D: Right. [00:16:10] Speaker A: But it'll probably get you sometime, you know, between eight months and a year of working on that. And at that time, you should be able to organize the various asks you have in such a way that you get some quick wins and can show them. And when you do get those quick wins, you want to say, here's the plan for that. This gift was great, but what I'm actually looking for is three gifts later. [00:16:32] Speaker D: Right. [00:16:33] Speaker A: So the reason I had them talk about this as a philanthropist was because I know at this institution that if they can make this investment here and our faculty and staff can grow it to this, that we can talk about scaling their gift in the future and because of their willingness to engage. Right. So you're kind of talking about both the organizational movement and the donor's behavior and how those things culminate and come together what that vision looks like. And over time, I think your leader will start to see that you not only understand the situation, but you know, what levers to pull and they'll begin to gain confidence and give you that, that latitude. And before you know it, those larger gifts are going to be coming in through the door. Because life events do happen, right? So what I recommend to gift officers is plan for no life events, right? Plan each strategy for at least 12 months, if not longer. Execute and adjust as needed. But you know, make sure you're following a plan you set out from the start so that you can convey that information to leadership and make them comfortable and also answer questions, but also manage your own portfolio. And one last thing, Andrew, because I feel like this is a long way to answer. One last thing is I would always say to keep your strategies focused and involved with leaders, I always involve them as much as you can and involve other people too, subject matter experts and leadership and volunteers, you know, even other development officers. And never do it in a vacuum. Fundraising can't be done in a vacuum. There's too much in our heads. If I can tell you so many times I've made a wrong move. And as soon as that move revealed to me that it was wrong, my first thought was if I had talked to my colleague about this, I would have done it differently. [00:18:12] Speaker D: Right? [00:18:13] Speaker A: So this is, this is why coaching is so important, is because it gives you somebody to just bounce those things off of someone who has experience, trade experience. [00:18:21] Speaker D: Right? [00:18:23] Speaker B: Okay, friends, let's take a quick break from today's conversation and talk about your leadership. Do you ever feel stuck or like you just don't know whether you're leading well or not? I know that's something that I've felt at times during my 25 year career leading people in teams. And many of the leaders that I've coached and advised over the years have also felt that way. That's exactly why I created the 90 Day Leader's Journey email course. This course is jam packed with value to help you become a more effective and competent leader and to give you the confidence to step into any leadership opportunity. The course is broken into three key aspects of leadership, which are your leadership character, your leadership culture, and your leadership competence. Over the course of 90 days, you'll receive one email every day. Each email is brief, point and focused on a single specific topic to help you level up your leadership game. This is the same exact leadership training that I deliver personally to the leaders that I coach and mentor every Day in business and nonprofit all across North America. Only instead of paying thousands of dollars or even tens of thousands of dollars, you can get access to this content at a significantly reduced cost. You can access this game changing leadership email course [email protected]. [00:19:47] Speaker C: Absolutely. So let's go back to that for a second. This idea of tradecraft, right? So as a kid I grew up in a household where my grandfather was an iron worker. [00:19:59] Speaker D: Okay. [00:20:00] Speaker C: And so we, you know, he was a union member. There were, there were guys in the trades all over our house and all over our family. And one of the things that was so interesting to me was the way that they learn. There's no, I mean, yes, there are books, I'm sure, where you can learn how to, you know, put up a drywall or you know, fabricate steel or whatever. But so much of that learning in the trades, in the construction trades and such is hands on apprenticeship style learning. And I, I can only think of a couple of development shops that I'm aware of that have that kind of mentality to get to the kind of tradecraft expertise that you're talking about though. I think that's what we need. Where do you see this happening or am I right that it's really not something that's broadly being applied in the space right now? [00:21:01] Speaker A: Really good question. I think that right now, and again this has to do with the timeline of the art and the science of this industry and it growing. We are in a transition right now where our, our senior leaders began their careers, typically at a time when it was still primarily art. And so the science, they hadn't necessarily done all those roles of annual fund of mid level giving right before they got into the, the larger giving. And so they didn't have the portfolios that churned, they had the portfolios that stuck, had smaller portfolios, less visits, less asks, more money. And a lot of our gift officers are moving through an industry right now where it's churn. And you have to prove yourself through churn that the problem is, is that it's a whole different shift of these variables. So by teaching somebody how to churn and be a, a, a mid level gift officer, you're actually helping them learn principles that may challenge them when they get into this major or principal giving. I do believe that there are shops that are starting to figure this out. One of the most innovative things I've seen is the introduction of DXO programs, Development experience officers or donor experience officers. And so this is something where you're starting to see really introductory level development officers creating their experiences by moving in a rotational manner through an institution. [00:22:27] Speaker D: Right. [00:22:27] Speaker A: So these are generally larger institutions that can afford to do this, but they're having development officers move from one school or college or one part of the hospital to another. It spend three months here and four months there working with different people so that they can feel out what they're good at and the institution can also witness them grow and see what that feels like. And so that's an innovative way to do it. Another thing that, that I, I'd say is, is important is looking to the people who've, who've set the, the trends and have, have properly talked about the trade and guided organizations on things that are now, you know, sort of best practice. So one of the books that I always keep near me is David Lively's Go. And so this is, this is a great book, Managing Major Gifts, Fundraisers. And in here it talks about some wonderful tools. I'm not sure if you're familiar with David Lively, but one of the things that's in here is how you set goals, right? How do you set goals for major gifts officers? And what's amazing is that it has to do with, with discounted projections, right. Which, the technical term for this, we call it forecasting. So you're not just looking at goals, but you're looking at forecasting towards those goals. And that takes in development officers. Gut instincts. So what we're talking about now is the art and science blending those two things. So I do think that there are institutions that are using these things well right now. I think our opportunity to grow is in small to mid sized institutions. And so generally charities between two and $10 million is where we have the opportunity to do more of this work. And so I would, I would offer to those institutions to really reach out to peers. We have this siloed effect in fundraising that we should not have because there's this, there's this mentality of scarcity when the truth is, and we know because of the great transfer of wealth, we know because the amount of money that's given, you can see it in the Giving USA report every year. It's in that, it's in the, you know, many billions of dollars. I, there is a mentality of abundance that's necessary for growth. And so we have to begin partnering and sharing best practices. [00:24:33] Speaker C: Yeah, I would agree. I mean, I'm very fond of saying, and I shout this as much as I can, that there are no fundraising problems in this sector. [00:24:41] Speaker D: Right. [00:24:41] Speaker C: There's no lack of capital, there's a lack of vision and there's a lack of leadership. And if we solve for those, the money shows up. [00:24:49] Speaker D: Right? [00:24:53] Speaker C: Give me a little more of your perspective. So one of the things that I, that I'm seeing, and I think everyone in the industry is kind of acknowledging is happening is that those sort of artists of the trade are aging out right there. There's, there's a lot of retirements on the horizon in this industry. How do we, how do we capture the knowledge and the essence of what it was like and what it meant to be sort of an artisan in this trade as those people leave the industry? And what's the, what's the platform for that? Because I fear that if we lose that, we go too far to the other side of saying, well, we've got this tech enabled platform to do this work and we've got all this, you know, science, and we lose the heart that came with the artistry. [00:25:42] Speaker A: Yeah, boy, that's a great question. So I, I saw something happen once when I was at Habitat International that I thought was brilliant. And they took a very experienced corporate development officer who had been doing this for decades before the invention of csr and he, they interviewed him alongside one of his corporate donors and they listened to the exchange between them. And what was amazing was there was some talk about shop, right, and how things work and why it worked really well and on and on. And that's great. What I heard was the tremendous relationship connection between him and this person. I heard them talk about being at each other's children's weddings, right? And I'm talking, this is it, this is a real artisan, like you said, right? So these are the kinds of things that happen with those people. They talked about life and death. They talked about things that people talk about with family and close friends, right? And so what I took away from that, the distillation of that was humanity, right? So reaching out to those, those people who are leaving the industry and listening to their humanity, how do they view the world? Development officers are so funny because no matter how you raise money, if you do it like this as an artisan, it's effectively an exercise in doing life more successfully. Because by working with philanthropists, you're working with people who have been successful. Not every successful person is wealthy, and that's true for sure, but the people who are wealthy in large part are successful. And so by speaking with our artisans, our most senior people who've been in the industry for a long time, you are listening to a distillation of lessons they've learned over the course of their career. Questions they've had over bottles of wine with CEOs and people who've been incredibly challenged and change, made huge strides in the world, made amazing change over bottles of wine at 2 o' clock in the morning. That's how they learn that information. What have they gleaned? Right, and listening to them with a donor will help you really do that. I think the other way to do it is to, is to actually come to them and ask them for their advice. How do I keep in touch with you? How do I institutionalize this relationship in some way? Some of them are going to go into coaching, but a lot of them are not because, frankly, this is an exhausting industry. And what you learn by working with successful people over the course of your life is to stop and really stop. But they're also philanthropically inclined. So I think you're able to take them offline and sort of borrow them. And that's also a good idea. [00:28:19] Speaker C: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. [00:28:21] Speaker A: Excuse me. [00:28:22] Speaker C: Okay, so I think we've only got a couple minutes left here. I want to, I want to get your counsel. Assume that you're speaking to a brand new fundraiser who's on day five at her organization. [00:28:37] Speaker D: Right? [00:28:38] Speaker C: What are the two or three things that you say? Focus primarily on these and you will have a successful career and build something. [00:28:50] Speaker A: Special in this industry. And Andrew, I don't know if you ask everybody these questions, but these are very good. So the first thing I would say is you really need to spend time speaking with, with some donors. [00:29:04] Speaker D: Right. [00:29:05] Speaker A: At all different levels. I would say also spend time with your marketing department. Understand how they craft the message of your organization and why they do it that way, what lessons have been learned as to how they've arrived to where they are today. Speak to your VP about how they intersect with the marketing conversation. [00:29:23] Speaker D: Right. [00:29:23] Speaker A: How do we tell our story is really, really important to understand and really ask for those nooks and crannies of. [00:29:30] Speaker D: How we got there. [00:29:31] Speaker A: I think that's another really important part of it. I think also speaking to people who have been at the organization for a long time that are not in fundraising, this could be, you know, staff of the organization. It could be volunteers or board members. Having an opportunity to do that is a great idea. And the last thing I'd advise is really just hit the phones, right? Start working out some of the scaries of being in touch with people and start getting your shtick. I'll tell you what my shtick is. When I call people on the phone, I pick up and the first thing I do is I say, hey, I'm Jason. I'm calling whatever leader for this organization and I'm excited to really talk to you because I know we haven't so long and we're remiss for not having done that. I live in Atlanta, you know. I know you do too, and I'd love to find a time to talk to you. So I try to start it off authentically and lighthearted. I always try to make a joke or get them to laugh in the first minute or two of our conversation. The best way to do that is by being self effacent. [00:30:31] Speaker D: Right. [00:30:32] Speaker A: Laughter in a conversation does amazing things for your longevity of your relationship. If you can connect on laughter, on light heartedness, you will find somebody much more willing to engage. And the last thing I'd say is that when you do speak to people and they are not interested in engaging with you, let it go. [00:30:51] Speaker D: Right? [00:30:52] Speaker A: Let it go. Because in order for this to be successful, qualification of donors, in my opinion, is the most important thing you can do. [00:30:59] Speaker D: Right? [00:31:01] Speaker A: And you'll know that by the first time you get 18 months through a relationship, make an ask and realize that you had misqualified someone. When they tell you no, you'll realize that qualification is the most important thing to get. [00:31:11] Speaker D: Right. [00:31:11] Speaker A: But, but I'll say that you need a willing party, somebody who's willing to come and talk and cares about this. Ask them why challenge them. Socratic fundraising is a tremendous tool if you haven't had an opportunity to learn about it. [00:31:26] Speaker D: Right. [00:31:27] Speaker A: Question people's intentions as to why learn about them not in a way that's critical, but in a way that's going to help you understand. And what you're doing is gathering data that you can pull on later to help justify your intentions to advance in a certain direction. So that's. Yeah. [00:31:45] Speaker C: Awesome. All right. So the final question that I have for you before we part ways this afternoon, what are you most excited for in this industry in the coming decade? [00:31:56] Speaker A: Good question. I mean, it's a strange thing to say. I'm actually very excited for us to begin understanding more about donor advised funds and where people are placing their dollars right now. And the, the we need to rectify or not rectify. We need to fix the intentionality behind philanthropy that we have institutionalized so well right after World War II. The U.S. if you look at before World War II to after World War II, we did such a good job of changing things from humanity, which we really should have say that. So I'm being kind of facetious to really focusing on how you make money. We've done that also here in philanthropy, and we've institutionalized things to be only about taxes and about. And we've. We now have things. We know there's a push and pull between the federal government and the financial services industry and where that money is sitting. When we can finally explore that whole thing wide open. And we say, what's this really about? I think we're going to have a great return to relationships and impact. And so I'm really excited for. For that to rectify itself and figure itself out. I'm not super concerned about the great wealth transfer. I don't think that. I think there's a tremendous relationship transfer happening. I saw you make a post about this, Andrew, just this morning, I believe. I think that's true. And that was Mitch in his. His post. So I'm just generally excited for the return to relationship management when we go a little too far with the science and the vehicles and all these things, when we start learning how to really lean in with people. [00:33:37] Speaker C: Yeah, I like that a lot. All right, man. Jason, this has been a great conversation. Thank you for being here. How do people reach you? [00:33:44] Speaker A: So great question. Please feel free to email me. Jasonivinggroupadvisors.com you can feel free to go online givinggroupadvisors.com it's my website and would be happy to connect with with anybody. I also have a monthly article in nonprofit pro and pro speak and so that's another great way to take a listen to the thoughts. [00:34:03] Speaker C: Awesome. [00:34:04] Speaker A: Thanks again, man. Good to be you too, Andrew. [00:34:11] Speaker B: Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the Rainmaker fundraising podcast. I have two favors to ask before I let you go. First, if you enjoyed this episode, please rate us and review us on whatever podcast platform you use to listen to this show. It'll help us reach more people with the tips and insights that you find most valuable. [00:34:28] Speaker A: My second favor is a little bit. [00:34:30] Speaker C: Of a favor to ask, but also. [00:34:32] Speaker B: A little bit of a gift to you. I write a daily substack newsletter called the Leadership Growth Newsletter. It's free to you and I write it to help people lead more effectively in both life and at work. I'd love for you to click the link in the show notes and subscribe to that newsletter as well. Until next time, friends. I hope you make it a great day.